Hi!

Just wondering whether anyone might have any ideas about my puppy's foot - she is an eight-and-a-half week old boxer. Today I noticed that her front right foot seems to look a little twisted, like it is rolling over a bit with the outside of her foot taking the most weight.

She is otherwise fine - happily running around and not favouring one leg over the other. I have been watching her like a hawk since we got her last week and has not suffered any injuries or falls.

Can you post a photo?

Take her to the vet to get examined.

Also ring your Breeder to ask if she noticed anything unusual about her leg

Yeah, here's a pic, sorry I'm not a great photographer and I only have my phone so it's not very clear. Hopefully you can see what I mean.

I am seeing the vet tomorrow, but patience isn't my strong point .

(hope the pic works, I haven't tried this before)

Possibly knuckling.

Exaclty what are you feeding and how much?

Knuckling can occur due to diet and to much food being fed.
Knuckling

Before I posted I looked through the forums and noticed that article...I wonder if that is what it is?

When we got her she was quite scrawny so the vet said feed her four meals a day, which we have been doing.

She has soaked Artemis and raw chicken mince for breakfast which mixes up to the size of about a small apple. Then two scrambled eggs for lunch. More Artemis and a bit of BARF pattie for dinner, again mixing up to about the size of a small apple. Then about a dozen bits of soaked a little Artemis and a dollop of natural yoghurt for supper. Is that too much?

Bloody Hell! Some of the photos on that website are gobsmacking.

What kind of Artemis are you feeding?

Does the chicken mince have bone in it?

Knuckling over.....cut back on her food for a while and it should go.

I would cut out the eggs and only feed mince with bone in it. You need to see a vet but my initial reaction to the diet is that the calcium/phosphorus ratio is out of whack and it may be too high in protein. That, however is a lay persons opinion and you need a professional one.

Frankly, if you're feeding a decent kibble, it may be safer to stick to that for a while. An adult, rather than a puppy one may be the go.

I'm feeding her Artemis medium/large breed puppy formula. I read the back of the pack and it doesn't say chicken bones. But the BARF patties have ground up chicken bones in them.

I will try cutting back on her food a little and see if it helps. Maybe I should cut out one meal...is that what you would suggest?

Does the mince have bone in it? If not, don't feed it. You need chicken pet mince which is ground up carcasses.. or better still the whole ones.

The chicken mince doesn't have bone in it. I am quickly learning perhaps my desire to get her a yummy human-worthy diet is probably not the best thing for her. Thanks, you guys are such a fantastic help - such speedy responses and great advice

What did your breeder say to feed?
It could be that the ratios of everything are off.
My first port of call would be my breeder then the vet
Good luck

Sounds like to much food is quite possibly the problem.

How much does she weigh?

If you were feeding a totally BARF/RAW diet then you should only be feeding 10% of her body weigh daily. You should be weighing her every few days to make sure you adjust the food amount.

Definitely agree about talking to her breeder.

You've got a Boxer.. they aren't renowned for being picky. I'd be sticking to a simple diet without extras while she grows. Kibble and meat on the bone or a carefully researched raw diet is the go.

I agree with PF
Artemis is great food so I would stick to it. I would only add raw meaty bones (like chickens/turkey wings, roo tails. I would get rid of anything else; maybe except of BARF patties. I would probably keep these, but I would make sure I am not feeding too much of anything.

She's 4 kgs. Yes I probably am feeding her too much - she was so scrawny when we got her that I went straight into fattening up mode. She certainly looks better now, but I think I'll cut back now.

Also regarding the breeder, she was feeding supercoat, which I haven't heard great stuff about. I guess that's why I'm not jumping at the thought of ringing the breeder for feeding advice. That's not to say she isn't a great breeder - she is - I just thought I could do better than supercoat. I think I'll stick with the Artemis, and some BARF patties, just lesser quantities.

Ok 4kg would be 400grams of food a day,at 10% of body weight, if feeding BARF. Usually split up into 3 meals.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Diet Suggestion-
Because you are feeding dry I would work out how much should be fed for her weight, look on the packet, and then only feed 1/3 of that a day. Your other 2/3rds of food will be made up of a Raw Meaty Bone (lamb flaps or necks) and BARF patty.

Breakfast -
Dry food (1/3 of what is suggested for her weight)

Lunch -
Raw meaty bone (approx 150grams)

Dinner - 150grams of Barf Patty (1/3 of 400grams)


The tiny rescue pups, Pippy & Poppy, that I raised were fed
Breakfast & Dinner-
minced chicken carcuss mixed with veggie slops and yoghurt

Lunch -
Raw meaty lamb bone

Thanks everyone!

I just wanted to let all of you who were kind enough to respond to my post that the vet said it might be bad news for our pup. She said it looked like a growth plate injury and that the outlook may not be good for her. She said the best case senario is that it does not get worse but the more likely outcome will be that it does become a more serious problem as she gets older. She even said 'a three-legged-dog is quite resiliant'.

I have been watching my pup really closely since we got her and I haven't witnessed any injury, so I am hoping the vet got it wrong.

She has referred us to an orthopedic specialist, which I will follow up. In the meantime I am getting a second opinion from my old family vet - a long drive, but I need to see some one whose opinion I really trust.

Does anyone know anything about growth plate injury in pups?

its more likely a diet imbalance, vets wont always pick it. so don't go chopping her leg off just yet.

DEFINITELY get a second, even third or fourth, opinion.

Thanks so much, I really hope you are right. My gut tells me it will be okay. I am seeing my old vet on Tuesday and he has an orthopedic surgeon visting that day to do an op. So between the two of them, I am confident that the visit will provide the full story - good or bad. We love her anyway!

All of my Amstaff puppies have knuckled over around 10 weeks of age. I just cut back their food for 2 or 3 weeks and the problem resolved itself. I think vets would be quick to assume its something more - cut back her food and wait a few weeks before making any rash decisions.

If it is an injury maybe it happened before you got the dog (you have only had it for a week or so) and the deformity is only showing up now due to growth. Maybe it would pay to call the breeder just so that you can obtain the most accurate history which you can pass on to the vet. It could be possible the pup had a fall or was dropped by a small child etc.
Good luck with your second opinion.

Have xrays been done to confirm? It looks like her foot is the problem not her leg. If it was her leg it would more likely be the growth plate but being her foot it's most likely to be diet. At 8 and a 1/2 weeks it would be very rare to see the results of premature growth plate closure.

Reduce her food and see what difference occurs in the the next week. I am pretty sure you will see a difference.

If it is a growth plate problem amputation is a last resort.

Previous thread on Premature Growth Plate Closure

Poppy has just had surgery to lengthen her radius as its growth plate prematurely closed.

would you consider knocking back to something like Eagle Pack giant breed puppy food for a while? Its quite good for problems.

as for the growth plate injury make sure they x-ray and have a qualified person see it. No one can accurately predict the future, if it was my dog and chopping off the leg was the only option I'd reduce the diet to something like IP and let the puppy grow slowly and on the lighter side. You never know how they grow and they do have a lot of growing to do

Which one would you suggest? The holistic or the other one?

I used the normal giant breed in the purple striped bag for my Dogue de Bordeaux. The kibble is quite small so your pup should not have an issue chewing it.

your dog will have an average growth rate on this food as its not very high in protein compared to most foods BUT it is very well balanced. I only recommend it as I have used it myself.

Thanks for that, I will track some down over the weekend. I am currently using Artemis, but I read the article b the Great Dane Lady and she also recommended Eagle Pack. In the meantime I have cut back to just three half-cup meals of Artemis

1 1/2 cups of food still seems like a massive amount for a 4kg puppy. But I don't feed dry food so I could be wrong. Are you still feeding other things as well?

No that's all I am feeding. On the back of the pack it says for a 5-10lbs puppy between 6 and 11 weeks to feed between 1 and 1/3 to 2 and 1/4 cups per day. She's 8lbs 8oz so I figure that is a little less than their suggestion. Don't know if my maths is quite right, I think so. But is that still too much do you think?

dog food bags tend to be terrible over ... my 60kg Dogue now eats about 3-4 coffee mugs of dry food a day the packet says he needs about double that but you use what you think is right. If the pup is a good weight a couple of chicken necks are good as well.

But feeding what someone thinks is right I would say is a major cause of knuckling because they are infact feeding to much. That's why dry dog foods are very confusing as you have no idea of really how much to feed.

If you feed a BARF diet then you pretty much know exaclty how much to feed and are able to weigh it.

I guess they want to you to use more and buy more. Maybe cut back even more then?

By the way...that photo of pippy and poppy at the end of your link is so cute, best of luck!

Coming from a BARF feeder I would say consider feeding her BARF and get rid of the dry food. You were already feeding BARF patties so continue with them but add either chicken necks and/or other raw meaty bones as well. Remeber to weigh everything so that it is only 10% of your girls weight daily.

puggy pug I love a BARF diet as well, dry food is a little more specific in their percentages. Batches have to be tested to fit in with guidelines whereas raw food changes between seasons and the animals it comes from. I would see no reason to go onto BARF completely if the dog gets better or a good dry food makes no difference after a couple of months.

If you do change her dry food make sure to change her over gradually.

I hope the second opinion you get is a better diagnosis.

No they don't want you to buy more. The amounts listed on the bag is a guideline. You then look at your dog and assess whether you need to cut back or increase quantity depending on its body score or body condition. The same would apply with barf. You don't just stick to a rigid amount. You need to consider the amount of energy your dog requires for growth, heavy exercise, recovering from surgery, pregnancy etc. It's not black and white and there are times when adjustments need to be made.

Artemis large breed puppy should be much better than Eagle Pack large breed puppy because of its superior ingredients.

Thanks Laffi

this is eagle pack giant breed


artemis

The ingredient qualities are similar its just what they use that is different. Eagle pack is corn, rice whereas artemis is potatos, brown rice, oatmeal and millet. Its the protein ratios that should matter at the moment.

Hi all! I'm cautiously optimistic with regards to our pup's foot. This morning, after cutting back on her food for trhe past couple of days, it looks so much better! It looks like you all might be right and the vet may have got it wrong - here's hoping. I am still taking her for a second opinion on Tuesday, but if it keeps going the way it is I think we will be okay. Thanks again!

My pup developed carpal laxity syndrome - signs of which appeared 3 days after he came here (he was 8wo when I brought him home). Like yours, my boy was underweight/nourished (3.5kg at 8wo), so it was a fine line between increasing weight and not feeding too much. If you feed to much, you encourage bigger growth spurts. The bones grow fast, but the ligaments don't keep up, and this causes the twisting/knuckling over. So the condition can be caused by either under-nutrition or over-nutrition.

All I concentrated on was keeping weight gain down to about 1kg per week (even though he was very ribby/thin and the temptation was always there to beef him up, this meant for him, feeding less that the prescribed amount). I fed Eagle Pack Holistic for Large Breed Puppies (my boy is a Rhodesian Ridgeback) and within about 6 weeks of feeding this and this only, clear evidence of the condition righting itself was visible. By about 8 weeks in, his front legs were amost completely straightened and his toes weren't stressed either (this is caused by the bowing out affect of carpal laxity and the extra pressure of weight on the outside of the foot).

I would definitely recommend you consult a specialist. If it is diagnosed as carpal laxity syndrome, I'd also be somewhat wary of anyone who wants to splint your dog - I believe that's still a fairly common practice and I'm not convinced that's entirely necessary nor necessarily best - but I'm not a Vet/Specialist myself and I can only tell you what worked in my own experience, so check it out first if it comes to that.

Thanks Erny. I am seeing a vet I trust greatly on Tuesday, who also happens to have an ortho performing surgery at the practice that day. Both will have a look at her. Just out of interest how did your dog grow. Is he normal size now?

..... he definitely grew!! In my opinion, he was and is a 'late bloomer' in terms of muscle development/filling out. I was careful to do very little (ie next to nothing) in terms of 'forced' exercise. IOW, the majority of exercise he got was by his own volition, not through on-lead exercise. Once his front legs straightened out, what was noticeable was 'floppiness' in his front legs, from the fetlock down and I was concerned on that for a while because he had a tendancey to go over on his knees during running/play, but that too has strengthened with time and with free exercise.

He's still quite 'leggy' and lean, but I have since and more recently realised he developed a food intolerance, but I've now switched to Eagle Pack Duck & Oatmeal formula. This is an adult formula and although I would have liked for him to stay on the puppy formula for a couple more months, he's at an age (10mo) where switching over is ok.

Here's some photo's (they're not very good as it was difficult to get him to stop in place whilst I snapped the shots) but they might give you an idea of the improvement in his legs :

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Pardon him being on a slippery floor in this one that follows ..... I was actually in the middle of cleaning the floors and had partially lifted the carpet piece :

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And then, about 6 or 7 weeks later ....

Sorry ..... having trouble getting photo's up. Refer next post .....

As I was saying ..... about 6 or 7 weeks later, not quite right yet, but much better ................

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And this one is more recent, although he went into 'drive' and was sitting back with front legs out a bit (although you might not tell that due to the angle of the photo), so it makes him appear a bit flat footed. His toes are tightening up (they tightened/loosened quite a bit throughout his development phases) now that I've switched his diet again.

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And here's one of him at the beach (this was about 2 months ago) ...

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