I am a firm believer that vaccinating puppies at 6 weeks of age is far too young as they still carry substantial maternal antibodies and hence any vaccines that are administered then are automatically neutralised by these antibodies and that is the reason why puppies are given a series of 3 vaccines as a means of giving vets the opportunity to literally laugh all the way to the bank; vaccines only cost a vet a couple of dollars and yet quite a few of them charge up to $70 for a C4!!!

I vaccinate my puppies the 1st time at the age of 8 weeks with a stronger vaccine that overrides a small amount of maternal antibodies that the pup may still have and then I recommend that they get a 2nd shot 4-5 weeks later. This doesn't apply for dobes or rotties as they are know to carry maternal antibodies for much longer so the last shot should be given at the age of 16 weeks.

Just wondering what your thoughts are on this subject.

Agree with not vaccinating at 6 weeks - but I leave it till 9 or so weeks - puppy buyers just have to wait!

Disagree with the notion that vets charge $70 just for a C4 - they are also charging for a full consultation, including checking temperature, heartbeat, testicles in a male pup, gum colour etc. Breeders are almost always given discounts - I only pay about $28 per C3 for my pups, with full health check! (And I would never give any more than a C3 to a pup - polyvalent vaccines are a bit much for some babies)

As much as I personally don't approve of over-vaccination, and the reliance on it for keeping vet practices solvent, I understand that many have a huge investment in equipment, property, staff etc, and I do appreciate their existence when my bitch needs an emergency caesar, or a dog has had an accident! So I never argue with their pricing, I just find one that suits me...

I know that some vets do charge a lower price to vaccinate litters and quite a few simply don't; I was quoted on more than one occasion by different vets for the exorbitant price of $70 per pup for litter of 5-8 pups. As for as checking the pups, it literally takes them only seconds to give them a quick check over and have you noticed that no sooner do they insert the thermometer that it comes out just as quickly?? lol.

I just find it absurd that they don't try to educate the public about maternal antibodies and encourage people to vaccinate the pups at a later age.



"""As much as I personally don't approve of over-vaccination, and the reliance on it for keeping vet practices solvent, I understand that many have a huge investment in equipment, property, staff etc, - MORGAN."""

So you are saying that vet's are justified in ruining a dog or cat's health by overvaccinating simply because of overheads?? Even with overheads you will find that most vets that run a private practice becoming very wealthy in no time with properties, cars and holidays and, last but not least, fine champagne I have no objection to this as long as they enjoy the fruits of their labour by doing the right thing.

It's nice to know though that there are some vets out there with a conscience who place a pet's health over and above greediness, they are few and far between but still I guess it's better than nothing

Zorro,
My understanding of the future new Vaccination protocols is, the ages for Vaccination will be at 8 , 12,16 and 20 weeks of age,with a further booster 6 mths later ,resulting in the dog/s being vaccinated for life.

I do not vaccinate puppies until eight weeks of age, and it is a course of 3 shots 8, 12, 16 weeks, my puppies do not go to their new homes until they are 10 weeks plus.
Six weeks is far far too young.

You seem to have had problems in finding decent vets! Both my vets do very thorough checks on puppies and kittens - many is the time that vaccinating and chipping 3 or 4 babies has taken over half an hour! Even when I lived on the North Shore I was able to get much better breeder rates than $70 a pup! I have never had a vet in 30 years do such a quick check as you mention.

Most vets that I know live simpler lives than you suggest, and quite frankly, with the time and effort they put into their careers, they deserve some sort of reward! Yes it is unfortunate that so many follow the party line with vaccinations, but they are a product of their environment - it is up to we consumers to educate them as to what we will tolerate, and what we won't. My vet decided never to give the 12 mth Proheart injections or Fort Dodge products again, (from his own observations) and I have educated him to the existence of immunity titre testing, which he will now happily do - so it is possible!

Fine champagne most vets I know don't drink much at all, as there is always the possibility of a late emergency callout! Many is the time I have had a vet out of bed at 2am or 3am for an emergency caesar or bloat case... (personally I think they deserve a fine champagne or two!)

Remember, you can always vote with your feet!

Morgan, sounds like the vets you have dealt with are few and far between, most vets that I know are living a life of luxury and I don't hold it against them by any means but I do when that entails sacrificing animal's health.....a fair few don't step outside the square to learn about different ways to treating animals besides what they have learnt at vet school and a few vets have said as much in magazines that I have read.

As far as vets being on call, well once again those are few and far between....usually if an emergency takes place after hours you are forced to take your pet either to Lortsmith animal hospital (which are open till midnight) or the werribee vet. hospital; this pertains to the state of Victoria. And I can wholeheartly say that you have to be wealthy to be able to afford a/h treatment from the werribee vet. hospital as they charge exorbitant prices!!!

My pups are never vaccinated before 8 weeks of age at the very earliest.

On the subject of litter vaccination prices. Established Breeder clients are given generous discounts at the clinic I work for. Bargain hunters who simply shop around for everything don't get as much discount.

I have been very lucky to have worked for many Vets who do not live the luxury lifestyle.
I have also never worked for a clinic that was not on call 24hours.

My current Vet Clinic is on call 24 hours a day and are going to follow the new vaccination protocol.
They do not drive luxury cars- most have twin cab utes and they love their animals

Well, since the majority of you have mentioned a new vaccination protocol as advised by your vet, has the vet bothered to explain that yearly boosts especially for the duration of the pet's life are not necessary and in fact a health hazard?? How about titre testing to check for antibodies so as not to revaccinate unecessarily??

Why single vets out?

ALL medical practitioners follow accepted practice, whether it is the fear of losing income, clients, credibility or running foul of regulatory bodies. It is up to us to do the research and state what we want! You might just as well ask why doctors still push the party line on cholesterol - statin drugs are every bit as dangerous and unnecessary for people as boosters are for dogs, but you have the media, the pharmaceutical companies, the Heart Foundation et al shoving the whole cholesterol myth at us, brainwashing everyone! Same thing! Tell me you've found a doctor who says the whole cholesterol thing is a load of bull***t and I'll eat my hat!

(I know - OT )

You have made a good point overall.

Reason why I single Vets out? - Because this is a pet forum.

Do you breed Zorro?
With so many different types of dogs I was just interested how many you breed.

Gillibob - EACH and EVERYONE of my dogs are desexed except for the cavalier girls which I have bred last time they were on season and only once a year at that. Having the breeds that I have and only one of each would indicate that they are solely pets and not breeding machines. I abhor puppy mills and large scale breeders be it registered or backyarders!!

I dont think this is all as clear cut as you make out.
Firstly If you have a bitch thats been vaccinated regularly you can be reasonably sure that she is immune and that she will pass on anti bodies to her pups and if this were the case ALL the time then young pups wouldn't get Parvo . But pups under 8 weeeks get parvo more than any others.
What of the bitch thats not immune and how do you tell the difference .? I am the first to jump up and down about over vaccinating and vaccicosis etc but you have to remember that there are variables with pups and deciding whether you should or shouldnt vaccinate at 6 weeks is something that has to be done with knowledge of the bitch ,how canine immunology works ,the area and the risks for your litter.

Hi Steve, you have raised some interesting points here. 1stly the reason that young pups catch parvo, even though it is assumed that they should carry adequate antibibodies from a dam that has been regularly vaccinated, is that unfortunately the antibodies are not sufficient enough to fight the dreaded parvo but by the other token they are strong enough to neutralise the vaccine and that is why even pups that are vaccinated at the age of 6 weeks still manage to catch parvo; it is false security to assume that a pup is protected just because it has been immunised at 6 weeks and a waste of both money and time. I have researched this subject for years and have spoken to vaccine manufacturers and have also spoken to vets that have researched this topic.

Dobes and rotties tend to carry maternal antibodies for a longer time than most other breeds and that is why it is imperative that the last puppy shot is given no sooner than 16-20 weeks.


A bitch that is not vaccinated yearly has less of a chance to pass on antibodies to her pups and this is, in a way, a good idea as the puppies will not have any lingering antibodies and hence there is a higher likelihood that the 1st shot will be successfull.

Having worked at a few vets, I can say that many work 12hr + days, some are on call 24 hrs. Yes the prices at after hours/emergency/spcialist clinics is higher, but this is because they often have expensive equipment, specialist vets and also have staff on 24 hrs a day! Staff that work nights understandably have a higher rate of pay.

Perhaps you need to find a new vet........ my vet takes a good fifteen minutes per animal, going over each one extremely thoroughly.






Why is it then, that both these breeds are so much more susceptible to parvo as puppies?

I can't comment about the age because I'm not a breeder but I recently got a greyhound pup at 6 weeks of age, she's now 9 weeks (rescue) and had her vacinated at almost 7 weeks this was recommended by the vet (a greyhound specialist) and she is due to go back just after the 12 week mark for her 2nd and final vaccination.

Dru

From what I have heard, the theory that Dobes and Rotts may carry maternal antibodies longer is why they are more susceptible to parvo - as it means the vaccine doesn't take hold until later vaccinations.

Nup I dont agree with you here Zorro and not all litters and breeds can be treated the same way
Too many variables . I dont have time right now to give this subject justice but will try
to get back in the next few hours.

Steve, Of course there are variables as to the age that puppies still carry maternal antibodies, there are variables also between litters and I think this boils down to the dam, her vaccination protocol, vaccine used, etc. (not sure if that is what you mean?) some puppies do carry maternal antibodies for longer periods of time but there is a vaccine that is able to override a small amount of maternal antibodies and that is why I insist on a live vaccine, I am partial to Protech Duramune....although I still think that 6 weeks is far too young to start vaccinating. From what I have been told, the higher percentage of puppies are antibodies free if you like, by the age of 9 weeks so this would be the optimum age to start vaccinating; this doesn't apply to rotties and dobes and I don't know the answer to that and the vets don't have an answer to this either.

What breed of dogs are you into?

Steve, Of course there are variables as to the age that puppies still carry maternal antibodies, there are variables also between litters and I think this boils down to the dam, her vaccination protocol, vaccine used, etc. (not sure if that is what you mean?) some puppies do carry maternal antibodies for longer periods of time but there is a vaccine that is able to override a small amount of maternal antibodies and that is why I insist on a live vaccine, I am partial to Protech Duramune....although I still think that 6 weeks is far too young to start vaccinating. From what I have been told, the higher percentage of puppies are antibodies free if you like, by the age of 9 weeks so this would be the optimum age to start vaccinating; this doesn't apply to rotties and dobes and I don't know the answer to that and the vets don't have an answer to this either.

Yep thats what I mean and yes some puppies carry maternal antibodies strong enough to protect them if their Mum's have
anti bodies which can be passed into the pup and Id hope the majority of people who were breeding responsibly would know the Dam's vaccination history . In these pups which do have maternal anti bodies 8 weeks is a better time to give a first vaccination but people like Cordy will tell you that not all pups are born with maternal antibodies and thousands each year die after contracting Parvo younger than 8 weeks. If there is any research or evidence to prove that one vaccination of any type or brand is more capable of overriding maternal anti bodies than any other Ive not seen it and Id be interested in seeing this if you have references for it . I have seen research to suggest that a killed vaccine such as parvo vac has less side effects than the live and that it is just as effective in providing immunity . Theoretcially its better for a vet to tell you killed vaccines arent as good as only a vet is able to give a live vaccine and they may loose financially if they tell us that the killed are just as good as we are able to buy these vaccinations off the net for $10 each.

It all comes down to a breeder understanding the issues associated with Canine Immunology and having knowledge to make the decision but many many breeders have no idea and based on the possible consequences part of any discussion on vaccinating pups has to be an understanding that the risks need to be looked at as well as what has worked for us and why we have made the decision we have.

[quote name='morgan' date='28th Apr 2006 - 05:26 PM' post='990198']
[quote]I know that some vets do charge a lower price to vaccinate litters and quite a few simply don't; I was quoted on more than one occasion by different vets for the exorbitant price of $70 per pup for litter of 5-8 pups. As for as checking the pups, it literally takes them only seconds to give them a quick check over and have you noticed that no sooner do they insert the thermometer that it comes out just as quickly?? lol. [/quote]

You seem to have had problems in finding decent vets! Both my vets do very thorough checks on

I can get litters vaccinated at $20 a pup, adult dogs are at $25 C4 and $25 C5, this is registered breeders rates ( Canine Association ), which I assume you are charged? If you are not a reg breeder may pay to become one and get the vheaper rate, I do not vaccinate till 8 weeks and the puppies do not go to new families till 10 weeks, I offer another vacc at 12 weeks free of charge if they all come back to the vet together!! Ask your vet and shop around for a better deal

1stly I am curious as to why Cordy should be considered an authority in this issue....how would she know for sure that some puppies are born without maternal antibodies??...I can understand that in her line of work she may have witnessed the loss of puppies due to parvo but it goes without saying that the puppies in question would not have been titre tested so how can she make such stipulations? My belief and, as I said earlier, those of a fair few vets, is that those maternal antibodies are present only in very small numbers, nowhere near enough to combat parvo but still able to neutralise a vaccine.

I was told by the vaccinate manufacturers that Protech Duramune is one of a couple of vaccines that is able to override maternal antibodies. It goes without saying that a live vaccine would be stronger than a killed vaccine hence more efficient. If a dog is going to have a reaction to a vaccine it will happen no matter whether it is killed or live, you will find that the reaction is due to other additives that are added not the virus in itself.

I dont have the energy to argue with you on why Cordy should know about puppies who dont have enough maternal anti bodies to fight off parvo .
Fact is some puppies are at a higher risk than others of contracting parvo and its not a good idea to come onto a public place and argue as if all puppies should be held off in the vacccinations in case some die because of it.
Sure in many , maybe even most cases its good to wait a couple of weeks longer but there are also circumstances where that would be disastous. Im not disagreeing with you entirely Im just saying your comments need to be qualified as the breeder needs to be knowledgeable to make the call.

Just curious... Is it necessary for the vet to vaccinate your dog? They usually do the yearly checkup at the same time which is not a bad idea. Is it just my vet's preference?
I was thinking that you don't have to be a doctor to vaccinate a human, so why with dogs?

I have meds that I can give by injection, but some meds are hard to obtain ( for me anyway ) Ivomectin I give intramuscular and I am by no way a vet!! I think ( personally) the drugs are the hard part to get.

Some killed vaccines are available that owners can vacinate with, but Live vaccines are only available to Vets.

ANY vaccination must only be given to a HEALTHY animal.
Absolutely healthy, any animal that is being treated with drugs or medications such as cortisone and other immune suppressant medicions should not be vaccinated.
Dogs that are under stress, recovering from illness etc should not be vaccinated.
All of this must be taken into consideration before the animal is vaccinated with any vaccine.