Howl, on 27 January 2012 - 06:33 PM, said:
yarracully, on 27 January 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:
Howl, on 27 January 2012 - 03:41 PM, said:
As for not being responsible for enforcing a law that they had a role in formulating - gee I would say the police have a strong role in formulating the law they enforce, DERM has a strong role in formulating environmental protection law, etc, etc. Unless you are trying to say that RSPCA Qld will benefit financially from enforcing the law??? Considering the money they have to put in to having even one Inspector in place, with all costs of office, vehicle and fuel, computer, shelter requirements for animals, etc I really don't think so. If people feel that precious about it maybe they could suggest that the DEEDI Inspectors take on the role of enforcing puppy farm legislation, just as they cover the commercial ventures and animals kept for scientific purposes.
As for why DPI (DEEDI) can't take on the entire role - why indeed?. Maybe you should ask them. I would think that the RSPCA would be quite happy to withdraw if DEEDI would put enough officers on to cover the state.
Wrong. No police force anywhere is involved in formulating a law. That is the role of politicians. Politicians create, police enforce, courts prosecute. Its called seperation of powers. What you have here with the RSPCA is Conflict Of Interest.
As for the inspectors quote
An inspector appointed under the Animal Care and Protection Act 2001 (including an employee of the RSPCA Qld who was appointed as an inspector), would generally need to obtain consent before entering a premise to check compliance with the Act. However, they could enter without consent if they obtained a warrant or if they reasonably suspected there was an imminent risk of an animal welfare offence causing death or injury to an animal or on certain other limited grounds.
And that means they can enter property and sieze animals on a suspicion without a warrant. Greater power than the police themselves.
Further the RSPCA comes under the umbrella of the RSPCA of Australia. As such the queensland branch is the same as any other. As a charity non government organisation they have no ties to any government. As such a government body may take a complaint but cannot act on any member of the organisation if that person is acting under the powers of that organisation. Members of the RSPCA executive have even admitted there is no accountability to any body outside the RSPCA. And QLD would be no different.
However as I have already said I don't live in Qld so this law won't affect me. We already have it in NSW and its caused alot of pain and achieved nothing.
I'll just wait and read all the comments about it in time to come- when others realise the mistake these laws, as they stand, have made.
I have already seen what can happen when this sort of thing occurs. As it has already happened in NSW. There have already been two large scale incidents that have resulted from this type of legislation. One a cattle farmer who ended up losing an entire herd (all perfectly healthy but never the less shot by the RSPCA inspector) as well as the farm itself, the other involving a wildlife park. And all because of the RSPCA and the abuse of power that these laws brought in.
Further the information you claim to be incorrect is based on facts of incidents that have occured in other states by this organisation under similarly worded legislation. Learn from history.
If you think the police have no input into developing the laws they enforce then you are kidding yourself. We have experts in policing, years of knowledge and experience - are you saying everyone just ignores what they have to say regarding what works, what doesn't and what is needed, and leaves it up to a politicians who has no idea on the subject, to formulate law? Of course not! Public servants are there to provide "frank and fearless advice" to their elected members, and the police are no different in that respect.
RSPCA Qld Inspectors do not have greater powers than the Qld police. In fact, Qld police under the Police Powers and Responsibilities Act have the SAME powers as an Inspector to enter a property without a warrant to take action in specific circumstances. I would familiarise yourself with the whole Police Powers and Responsibilities Act before you make such a ridiculous statement again - you will find Qld police have more powers than you think.
Yes RSPCA Qld does come under the umbrella of RSPCA Australia, but it is still a separate organisation AND the law its Inspectorate enforces is different to all the other states. Just because they are part of the RSPCA does not override the fact that the Qld Inspectors appointment comes from the state government and they must abide by the provisions of the Animal Care and Protection Act 2001 and DEEDI guidelines in the course of their duties. If they did not they would be acting outside of the law and there would be no authority to support their actions.
I understand there have been problems in NSW but I have tried to make it quite clear that I have been talking about the situation in Qld. Because at the end of the day, this is the state where the proposed legislation is being considered. Not NSW, not Vic. They have different Acts and different lines of reporting. Are you also aware that the Animal Care and Protection Act 2001 is not a new situation - it has been enforced by RSPCA Qld Inspectors since its introduction over 10 years ago. So in those 10 years, they have run around unfettered with this great power and the ability to abuse it - and you can only bring up a case in NSW (with different legislation) and a case in Victoria (with different legislation) to say it clearly doesn't work?
I am well aware of the law making process. And Qld police are no different in their powers than any other state. But at least there is a police ombudsman which can be brought in for accountability. The RSCPA in any state has no such independant umpire.
As for who makes the laws do you think that anyone with knowledge was involved in drafting the ridiculous laws that are now in place in Victoria. No it was done by politicians with direct guidance and input from a charitable organisation with a very powerful PR image. By the way public servants that you refer to are people like teachers, nurses etc.
Politicians make the laws. Thats what they do in Parliment-debate and create laws.Not have tea parties. The public servants only supply the information to them but other forces guide them.
As for the law itself the wording of this law that gives power to the RSPCA in QLD is the exact same wording that appears in the laws of NSW and Vic. Also in all cases the organisation has no independant umpire or system to which it must answer. As for the DEEDI you mentioned, if they were tasked with enforcement good. Then you will have an accountable system with due process and seperation of powers.
Furthermore the law being proposed in QLD is one being pushed by RSPCA Australia federation. Of which QLD is only a branch of. It is not a seperate organisation. It has the same structure and guidelines to work within as any other state branch. It has the same lines of reporting and the same potential to be exploited.
However the involvement of the RSPCA Australian federation tells me the law is intended to go Australia wide.
Its not the legislation that is the issue. Its the ability for it to be abused with no outside control. This is something that people in NSW and Vic tried to point out years ago and yet the law went through and the problem has occured.
How hard is it to see that QLD will be heading down the same road as NSW and Vic have already gone. Then again it is always easier to agree with anything and then realise later that it was the wrong way to go.
I don't have a problem with the intent of the law. Its just the Judge, Jury and Executioner are the one and the same and they shouldn't be. I have already posted about a document that will give insight into what can and has happened. Read it and see for yourself how individual inspectors will go outside the laws and due process and the victim had no recourse.
Be informed, or you could just pretend it wont happen then cry foul when it does. Its easier to fix the problem before it becomes law-impossible to fix afterwards.
As I have already said I and others tried fighting this before it came in in NSW, now it has been realised how big a mistake this power creates but its too late for some here.
Make your own decision about it, but try to be fully informed first. Remember this though, what you decide now is what you will be stuck with forever, but also quite likely so will others in every other state in Australia. Because this will go Australia wide.
Kind of reminds me of the way the docking and debarking ban was brought in in one state and all the other states said "It won't happen here" yet it did. Interestingly enough same organisation, same powers granted, same tactics- history it seems does repeat.
This post has been edited by yarracully: 27 January 2012 - 10:04 PM