[Steve]

moosmum, on 29 February 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

bluedeer, on 29 February 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

In many slaughterhouses it was common to use a goat called a "Judas Goat" that the sheep that were being readied for slaughter would be placed with before being directed into the kill room. The Judas Goat's job was to lead the sheep quickly and quietly up the ramp to where the killing took place. The sheep eagerly followed the goat because as another herbivore they think it has the same interests as them. At the top of the ramp the Judas Goat was let out to repeat the process and lived to an old age while the sheep met their end.

I think we as small ethical breeders are the sheep and the Judas Goat is the Animal Libs/Oscars flaw eager to get us to think that our interests are the same.

I will not be led by these fanatics who view ALL Breeders as one and the same.

Trouble is,we all are the same.Ethics aren't excluse to ANKC.
As long as ANKC breeders can't see that,a broader view of ethics acceptable to all interests can't be reached.
Every ones too busy trying to point the finger elsewhere and theres no Body to represent all interests equally.
Whether breeders like it or not,there is a whole industry associated with dogs in the community and we are part of it.

Edited to add, and affected by all legislation we ask for, or don't study very carefully and and comment on.

Yep but I don't think everyone is too busy pointing the finger - there is lots going on behind the scenes.
Its just stuff you cant talk about here.

This post has been edited by Steve: 29 February 2012 - 01:14 PM

[asal]

bluedeer, on 29 February 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

In many slaughterhouses it was common to use a goat called a "Judas Goat" that the sheep that were being readied for slaughter would be placed with before being directed into the kill room. The Judas Goat's job was to lead the sheep quickly and quietly up the ramp to where the killing took place. The sheep eagerly followed the goat because as another herbivore they think it has the same interests as them. At the top of the ramp the Judas Goat was let out to repeat the process and lived to an old age while the sheep met their end.

I think we as small ethical breeders are the sheep and the Judas Goat is the Animal Libs/Oscars flaw eager to get us to think that our interests are the same.

I will not be led by these fanatics who view ALL Breeders as one and the same.

you dont have to be small to be ethical... you have to realise curling up into a ball and saying "im ethical" isnt going to save you from the cull.

this is to eliminate pedigree dogs and by the mass culling of membership and numbers bred already achieved, its right on track..

when will the precious ever realise that everyone is in for the chop?

This post has been edited by asal: 29 February 2012 - 01:43 PM

[Mystiqview]

This still does not target or get those operating out of back yards selling on free internet sites and the weekend papers. These already pump out puppies - individually not as grand as the large puppy farmers, but collectively a considerable number of puppies from these back yard establishments still find their way into the pet shops etc.

These back yard breeders fly under all government radars currently. If you live in Brisbane and a few other council areas, you need to have a "breeders permit" to breed. The only way you get this is to have a registered breeders prefix current with Dogs Qld.. Most of these back yard breeders are not registered with Dogs Qld. Some animals may be pedigree, some maybe on Main and some on Limit. The others are just "purebred". Breeding "purebred" puppies which are not vaccinated, wormed or in particular Microchipped - something against the Animal Management Act (Cats and Dogs) 2008.

Dogs Qld sent out a link to a government survey a week or so ago, which mind you ends 5pm Qld time today.

[Crisovar]

Mystiqview, on 05 March 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

This still does not target or get those operating out of back yards selling on free internet sites and the weekend papers. These already pump out puppies - individually not as grand as the large puppy farmers, but collectively a considerable number of puppies from these back yard establishments still find their way into the pet shops etc.

These back yard breeders fly under all government radars currently. If you live in Brisbane and a few other council areas, you need to have a "breeders permit" to breed. The only way you get this is to have a registered breeders prefix current with Dogs Qld.. Most of these back yard breeders are not registered with Dogs Qld. Some animals may be pedigree, some maybe on Main and some on Limit. The others are just "purebred". Breeding "purebred" puppies which are not vaccinated, wormed or in particular Microchipped - something against the Animal Management Act (Cats and Dogs) 2008.

Dogs Qld sent out a link to a government survey a week or so ago, which mind you ends 5pm Qld time today.

There are huge numbers of pups coming from these sources, huge!
An afternoon trolling through the local fb classifieds is enough to make you simply sit in a corner and rock.
The majority are sold unvacc/unchipped and believe the laws do not apply to them. Any suggestion that they are not doing the right thing is enough to have you banned.
Legislation will not affect these people, no one polices local laws and state laws regarding the selling of pups, so they all continue on.

[Mystiqview]

When I worked for a local council, we had our own intranet where we could advertise stuff.

The number of council workers advertising BYB crosses which were NOT microchipped or older than 8 weeks, were mindboggling.

I worked in animal laws with them for a time before getting another job in another section. I just could not belive the complacency.

And from a council with a very vocal local member on local animal control.

ETA: When I tried to microchip a litter of pups at 6 weeks for DNA testing in 2008, I couldn't because the stupid law at the time said not until 8 weeks.. ARRGGGHHH A 6 week border collie puppy can be heavier than an adult cat!

This post has been edited by Mystiqview: 05 March 2012 - 05:04 PM

[zeebie]

As an example of a situation I recently encountered a person who lives in a non regional area of QLD, sometime ago purchased legitimately a pomeranian bitch, and later a shih tzu dog from different breeders, both dogs were fully registered and papered. This person then commenced cross breeding these dogs to create designer dogs "Pomshie" before long another purebred bitch was brought into the mix a maltese, and yes it was bred to the shihtzu and to one of the original sons of the first litter from the pom X Shihtzu, so after a couple years and many many litters later which were being sent off to various "friends" in Brisbane to act as puppy sellers, being sold for up to $800 unregistered, no papers, and no vaccinations or microchipped etc. I had steam coming out of my ears when I heard this story and the person boasting of how much money that has been made from these dogs and the poor little things were unkempt, covered in matted hair and malnourished with rotting teeth and other health issues, all of which were put down to various excuses such as oh just getting over a litter not looking her best or, the red swollen diseased feet were due to so much water around lately. the bottom line is RSPCA has not been able to do anything as according to current laws this person is not breaking any they can prove. Local council in her region is not interested as she is on acerage and only 3 dogs (according to her ) reside there, pups have to be gone by 3 months which of course they are. Even now with new laws in force to ensure microchipping pre sale etc this is being somehow ignored and silly unaware buyers are paying big bucks for these genetic timebombs. with no gaurantee that the cycle won't continue if the dogs are not desexed etc. And Dogs QLD cannot do anything as none of the pups are registered by this backyard breeder and I doubt she is a member anyway.
I just wish I could let every breeder in Australia know not to sell a dog to this person as the end result will be disastorous.

[Crisovar]

Quote

covered in matted hair and malnourished with rotting teeth and other health issues

RSPCA have seized dogs and charged owners for less than this, failing to provide Veterinary treatment is an offence.

[Mystiqview]

It is one thing to bring in legislation. You can legislate to the hilt. Makes no difference if you cannot enforce it.

You need someone or some body to police the legislation.

There lies the problem. There is no resource allocated to the policing of the current legislation. I worked in a local council in animal management. We did not have the resources to go out there and hit these people and follow up. Our own council staff were advising on the intranet designer BYB pups who were not microchipped for $800 + (some were not even registered with council - oops). Then they did not want to take it to court because this would cause controversy and the local members did not want that - not when there was an election year coming up.

So introducing more will not solve the issue. It only REALLY effects the ones who are already doing the right thing and abiding by the legislation. The rest who do not care and already breaking the law will continue until they are caught. Again while the penalties are there in the Act, they are not being imposed.

So really... what is the deterrent?????

[sandgrubber]

Mystiqview, on 07 March 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

It is one thing to bring in legislation. You can legislate to the hilt. Makes no difference if you cannot enforce it.

You need someone or some body to police the legislation.

There lies the problem. There is no resource allocated to the policing of the current legislation. I worked in a local council in animal management. We did not have the resources to go out there and hit these people and follow up. Our own council staff were advising on the intranet designer BYB pups who were not microchipped for $800 + (some were not even registered with council - oops). Then they did not want to take it to court because this would cause controversy and the local members did not want that - not when there was an election year coming up.

So introducing more will not solve the issue. It only REALLY effects the ones who are already doing the right thing and abiding by the legislation. The rest who do not care and already breaking the law will continue until they are caught. Again while the penalties are there in the Act, they are not being imposed.

So really... what is the deterrent?????

Maybe changing attitudes among registered breeders to make it acceptable/respectable to breed healthy puppies for the pet market. If 'breed only to improve the breed' is interpreted narrowly, and people who do health checks, vaccinations, etc., continue to be shamed for not participating in competitions, there won't be enough pups for the huge number of families who simply want a healthy purebred with a known pedigree. If you can't get the pedigree dog you want, where do you go? If pedigree breeders can't or won't meet the demand for purebred pets, someone else is going to do it.