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Breeding With Bitches Who Have Had A C Section and their daughters....

#16 User is offline   Bilbo Baggins 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 04:32 PM

I'm with Steve need to look at the whole course of the labour.

#17 User is offline   Andisa 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 04:53 PM

View PostSteve, on 05 February 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:


Was it primary or secondary inertia? how large was the litter? What was she fed pre whelping?
When you speak about inertia there may be ways you can go about preventing it next time - assuming it caused because of something maternally and not because the pups were too big for her birth canal etc.
So tell me how the labour progressed and what got you to deciding it was a C section and we will look at it more closely.


Steve - I mentioned above the litter details, Piper had primary inertia. I have been feeding a raw natural diet for years and went by the Billinghurst book back then, I believe I ticked all the boxes and still had trouble. Had she been a kennel dog she would have died with the first litter, she gave no real indication that she was in labor except for a really intense stare - then I noticed a small amount of dark fluid on the floor where she had just dripped, had she been outside I would have missed it. I just knew she was in trouble - gut feeling, called the vet and told them I was on my way. They told me to give her time but I said "no" I am coming in. They scanned her and found the pups were stressed and mum was too - she walked around the surgery as if nothing was wrong but I just knew it was time. Ray Ferguson asked me what made me think she was in trouble, all I could say was gut instinct - he told me I made the right call, if I waited much longer all the pups would most likely have died - 1st pup delivered was already dead. They were small to average size pups for the breed.


Second time she was laying in the whelping box beside me and gave me the same look - I knew we were in trouble again and then she passed a lot of brown blood. Called the em clinic (A/H)and had her there within 15 mins - however they took their sweet time, 1 hour later before doing the c section. They did an ultra sound and thought all pups were dead which is my guess why they didn't go straight in. They said that 2 pups had been dead for a while and most likely the reason she went early, they were small but still a reasonable size for their gestation.

Both times Piper hardly made any mess with digging outside or in the box, her biggest indication was the intense stars at me. One thing I have noticed is she has a small vagina, even in full season she was small, her first litter was a fresh AI and second was a natural mating. Where as my other girls have huge vaginas when in season and they are maidens. When the vets did the first c section they said that there was no physical reason why she could not have delivered naturally, everything looked normal.

eta; - thinking back over 4 yrs ago and she was given time to labor but not progressing, I made a few calls with the first litter before going in. Second litter I figured with all the brown blood it was all over and went straight away.

This post has been edited by Andisa: 05 February 2012 - 05:00 PM


#18 User is online   Steve 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 04:57 PM

View PostAndisa, on 05 February 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

View PostSteve, on 05 February 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Was it primary or secondary inertia? how large was the litter? What was she fed pre whelping?
When you speak about inertia there may be ways you can go about preventing it next time - assuming it caused because of something maternally and not because the pups were too big for her birth canal etc.
So tell me how the labour progressed and what got you to deciding it was a C section and we will look at it more closely.


Steve - I mentioned above the litter details, Piper had primary inertia. I have been feeding a raw natural diet for years and went by the Billinghurst book back then, I believe I ticked all the boxes and still had trouble. Had she been a kennel dog she would have died with the first litter, she gave no real indication that she was in labor except for a really intense stare - then I noticed a small amount of dark fluid on the floor where she had just dripped, had she been outside I would have missed it. I just knew she was in trouble - gut feeling, called the vet and told them I was on my way. They told me to give her time but I said "no" I am coming in. They scanned her and found the pups were stressed and mum was too - she walked around the surgery as if nothing was wrong but I just knew it was time. Ray Ferguson asked me what made me think she was in trouble, all I could say was gut instinct - he told me I made the right call, if I waited much longer all the pups would most likely have died - 1st pup delivered was already dead. They were small to average size pups for the breed.


Second time she was laying in the whelping box beside me and gave me the same look - I knew we were in trouble again and then she passed a lot of brown blood. Called the em clinic (A/H)and had her there within 15 mins - however they took their sweet time, 1 hour later before doing the c section. They did an ultra sound and thought all pups were dead which is my guess why they didn't go straight in. They said that 2 pups had been dead for a while and most likely the reason she went early, they were small but still a reasonable size for their gestation.

Both times Piper hardly made any mess with digging outside or in the box, her biggest indication was the intense stars at me. One thing I have noticed is she has a small vagina, even in full season she was small, her first litter was a fresh AI and second was a natural mating. Where as my other girls have huge vaginas when in season and they are maidens. When the vets did the first c section they said that there was no physical reason why she could not have delivered naturally, everything looked normal.


Where they a bit over weight? How many puppies?

#19 User is offline   Andisa 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 05:05 PM

This is the same bitch both litters - she was super fit first time, she was swimming 3 times a week around 80 laps of the dog pool each time plus going to the beach and regular walking, second time she wasn't as fit but not unfit - not fat or over weight.

First litter was 9 delivered - 8 live. Second was 8 delivered (2 dead and decomposing)6 delivered live, 1 died soon after - another 2 died within days. Was a struggle with them being premmies. She was home within hours of surgery.

#20 User is offline   Sandra777 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 07:39 PM

In this sceanario I would be asking the owners of other closely related bitches and if it doesn't seem to be a common problem, I would try one litter going in with the resolve that if it happened again I would not persist.

My foundation bitch was a daughter of a bitch who was very slow whelping (6 hours for 5 pups). My bitch had no of problems with her first litter of 7 but her second and final litter was 5, one DOA after being forcep delivered by the vet. Those were the days :eek: The bitch I kept out of the final litter had a litter of 10 first time, 9 the second. The first litter she was fine, 2nd litter she needed oxytocin to get the first pup out then was fine. 3rd litter was 5 and she was living with a vet then who gave her a shot of oxy for each pup but I'm not strictly speaking positive she needed this much (again, I wasn't there, perhaps she did)

This post has been edited by Sandra777: 05 February 2012 - 07:41 PM


#21 User is offline   Andisa 

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Posted 05 February 2012 - 07:45 PM

View PostSandra777, on 05 February 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

In this sceanario I would be asking the owners of other closely related bitches and if it doesn't seem to be a common problem, I would try one litter going in with the resolve that if it happened again I would not persist.

My foundation bitch was a daughter of a bitch who was very slow whelping (6 hours for 5 pups). My bitch had no of problems with her first litter of 7 but her second and final litter was 5, one DOA after being forcep delivered by the vet. Those were the days :eek:

Sandra, I know her breeder well and there is no history of this with Piper's mother or Aunts, they were good natural whelpers of sizable litters, none of her sisters were used for breeding.

The vet may be right, maybe it was just bad luck.

#22 User is online   Steve 

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 07:09 AM

I dont know - it can be caused by so many reasons but I think what you are describing is possibly hormonal or similar rather than some kind of issue regarding a narrow pelvis or too large a whelp etc.
Same sort of thing as a dog that needs progesterone treatment where it may be affected by diet and chemicals etc in labour in humans they reckon its caused about 70% of the time by fear of whats happening to them and I have seen many cases where owners try too hard and interfere too much .you wont know if it was just bad luck or if it is going to show in the daughters until you give it a go. In my case it was clear it was happening in one bitch line - so they were taken out of the loop but sometimes its easy to jump in and make decisions without enough information.
I dont think you have enough information to know the answer but enough to give it a go.

#23 User is offline   Leema 

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 07:02 PM

It does depend on the reason for c-section, and if there was a family trend of c-sections, I would reconsider the lines.

My bitch had an elective c-section for a singleton puppy recently. If any of her children had singletons or small litters, I might reconsider these lines.

For now, I'm happy to think of it as 'bad luck' and see how we go.

#24 User is offline   leopuppy04 

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 07:36 PM

What do you do with a bitch who has had ONE C section -
I would breed again from one C - section - in fact I am right now. 3 years ago my 2.5yr old bitch had a c-sect for primary inertia. Lots of things playing a part - difficult pregnancy, aborting puppies, infection etc etc. Slight temp drop at day 58, 48hrs later, nothing, prog results were at 5.5, so a c-section was decided upon. Now had we left her - what's to say she wouldn't have started whelping naturally later that night? what's to say that the intertia wasn't contributed to by the medication she was on and all of the infections?

We have mated her again and she is now 7.5wks pregnant. Will wait and see what happens. Prog testing her from day 60 and hopefully she will whelp naturally. I would not give her another chance after this if she does require another c-section, and even if she doesn't, now that she's 5.5 I don't know if she'll have another litter anyway!

None of her family lines have cesarians, or if they do, it hasn't been caused by inertia, it has been caused by natural things such as stuck puppies etc.

Would you spay her?
I plan to spay all of my girls once they are no longer breeding dogs, however if Kinta requires another c-section and it is not a difficult or emergent one, then I will have her spayed at that time.

Would you breed her again?
With any c-section I am happy to give them two goes, and then end at that...
If you bred the bitch again after one c section did she require another or not?

Would you breed with a daughter from a bitch who had a c section.
yes, I have a 2.5yr old daughter from the same dog and I am planning on breeding her later in the year, and we (hopefully) will be keeping a girl from this litter too. For these pups, the 2 c section rule also applies, but from that, SHOULD they require further c-sections, then I would be looking at perhaps keeping only a boy, or being very strict and only breeding to lines that have no history of a c-section. I guess I'm willing to 'give' a little on this for a few reasons being that - it's not common in the breed to require a c-section, most are easy whelpers, they have a GOOD genetic genepool, so I want to continue these lines, and there are more concerning issues within the breed. HOWEVER don't get me wrong, I don't discount the fact that they have had inertia, and wouldn't want to continue the problem, so I would be careful about who I am breeding my girls to, if they tend to have a family history of it. I think only time will tell what my decision might be...

#25 User is offline   Mystiqview 

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 10:14 AM

I am with the others. Depends on the need of the C-section. For misrepresented puppies, that is not the bitch's fault. The bitch also determines size, so if there are large and small puppies in there, that is not the sire's fault. He determines sex.

For me, only two C-sections should be allowed on a bitch. Especially with breeds who are supposedly free whelping. I think to do any more than two C-sections on a bitch is just plain cruel and you should be looking at getting another bitch or line (again if you have a free whelping breed). There is a lot of cutting required, and as a result scarring will be taking place each time. If you need to constantly do C-sections on a bitch, I would be questioning the viability of continuing with that line. Are we not supposed to be breeding to better the breed? A bitch who cannot whelp naturally continually, is not bettering the breed. (I do understand the need in some circumstances for elect C-sect due to age or singleton etc.)

One bitch I had here, had complete uterine inertia on her first litter, to the point where she could not even deliver her first pup. She was about 2 years old, and very fit and healthy. Her mother, grandmother and great grandmother where all free whelpers. I know it was going to be a huge risk if I chose to breed her again, of it happening again. Border Collies should be free whelpers. I kept the only daughter in this litter. Unfortunately she did not make the grade at 14 months and was rehomed as a pet. Her mother I desexed a month prior.

For me, that is the end of that line completely. Some very old and lovely bloodlines are gone.

#26 User is offline   leopuppy04 

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 01:26 PM

To add onto my previous thoughts:

My bitch had inertia and a c-section again. So now I guess this line is now under consideration as it's not something I want to breed with or into a line of otherwise healthy whelpers. All of her relatives have always whelped easily.

I will await and see what happens with her daughter when I breed her later this year. If she too has intertia then I would have to seriously consider before continuing her lines. I hope to keep something from this current litter in co-ownership and that too will need to be into consideration if we keep a female.

Having said that - if either boy produces a pick boy, then I would consider keeping that and breeding back to a line of clear/ healthy whelpers :).

I guess it all becomes a game of what are you aiming to improve MOST on in your breed. One thing for sure is that I don't want to produce a line of girls needing a c-section.

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