[WoofnHoof]

raz, on 10 February 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

WoofnHoof, on 10 February 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I think there are minimum standards for new facilities but it would be nice to see grants offered for upgrades to existing facilities as well.

Unfortunately I think those grants probably all went to upgrading Indonesian abbattoirs while everyone here was screaming after last year's Animals Australia hysterics that it doesnt happen in Australian abbattoirs. This is a case of - It doesnt happen in our backyard - and while people were pointing the finger elsewhere, it all got pushed under the carpet here. Political brownie points at the time and it will all come home to roost now.

I don't see it that way, it is necessary to try to address both, we have a responsibility to our animals whether they are slaughtered here or elsewhere. The main difference is that it shouldn't happen here as we have codes of practice and animal welfare laws specifically pertaining to the slaughter of animals, whether they get followed and enforced is of course a different story. At the time we didn't have any rights pertaining to the treatment of our animals offshore and while it's likely that we still don't I think it's all part of the gradual erosion of ignorance of the general public as to what it really takes to get meat on the table.

I don't think anyone who has worked in an abattoir is denying that things aren't all butterflies and sunshine no matter where it is but some facilities are better equipped and managed than others and so they need to set the standard for the rest to follow. In some plants it is the buyers who dictate the standard, I don't know if it has been adopted in Australia but in the US McDonalds conducts audits for their suppliers based on Grandin's guidelines and if the performance drops below a certain level they will suspend receival of product until the standard is brought up to acceptable levels. It's a useful incentive and one which should compliment education ideally.

[melzawelza]

Greytmate, on 10 February 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

samoyedman, on 10 February 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

~Anne~, on 10 February 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

I think this latest evidence has made up my mind. I am going to give up meat.

Good luck. I've tried and can't.

I feel so empty and hungry unless I eat some sort of animal flesh and I'm afraid subsitutes like tofu etc. just don't cut it.

That just the eating habits you have slipped into. If you put as much effort into buying and preparing quality vegetables and other ingredients as you do meat, you would find them satisfying. Instead you eat a big lump of meat , and then garnish it with a small amount of boiled-up frozen veges. (that's what you describe here)

If you ate a good vege dish, like a well-made vege lasagne, you wouldn't miss the meat as much. If you ate more vegetables and better vegetables, you would get used to that way of eating and wouldn't have to rely on meat so much.

This. You can't eat the same when vegetarian and just take the meat out. I know a few people that would do that. Family eating meat burritos and they'd just have a burrito with salad and cheese. WTF.

You do need to cook differently and you can't rely on the standard 'Meat and 3 veg'. You need to learn to hide veggies and tofu through things to bulk it out. Making a veggie chilli? Of course lots of beans but also grate a heap of carrots, capsicum, zucchini through. Add a tin of lentils on top of that. Then you start to really bulk out your food with nutrition and you will start to feel full.

[samoyedman]

Greytmate, on 10 February 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

samoyedman, on 10 February 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

~Anne~, on 10 February 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

I think this latest evidence has made up my mind. I am going to give up meat.

Good luck. I've tried and can't.

I feel so empty and hungry unless I eat some sort of animal flesh and I'm afraid subsitutes like tofu etc. just don't cut it.

That just the eating habits you have slipped into. If you put as much effort into buying and preparing quality vegetables and other ingredients as you do meat, you would find them satisfying. Instead you eat a big lump of meat , and then garnish it with a small amount of boiled-up frozen veges. (that's what you describe here)

If you ate a good vege dish, like a well-made vege lasagne, you wouldn't miss the meat as much. If you ate more vegetables and better vegetables, you would get used to that way of eating and wouldn't have to rely on meat so much.

I confess you've described me to a T.

The thing is I crave meat (or is it the fat?). And chicken and fish. I really enjoy eating animal flesh.

I don't find veges and all the protein substitutes for meat anywhere near as tasty or fulfilling and they're so much more work to prepare compared to (example) chucking a steak in the pan.

[melzawelza]

samoyedman, on 10 February 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

Greytmate, on 10 February 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

samoyedman, on 10 February 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

~Anne~, on 10 February 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

I think this latest evidence has made up my mind. I am going to give up meat.

Good luck. I've tried and can't.

I feel so empty and hungry unless I eat some sort of animal flesh and I'm afraid subsitutes like tofu etc. just don't cut it.

That just the eating habits you have slipped into. If you put as much effort into buying and preparing quality vegetables and other ingredients as you do meat, you would find them satisfying. Instead you eat a big lump of meat , and then garnish it with a small amount of boiled-up frozen veges. (that's what you describe here)

If you ate a good vege dish, like a well-made vege lasagne, you wouldn't miss the meat as much. If you ate more vegetables and better vegetables, you would get used to that way of eating and wouldn't have to rely on meat so much.

I confess you've described me to a T.

The thing is I crave meat (or is it the fat?). And chicken and fish. I really enjoy eating animal flesh.

I don't find veges and all the protein substitutes for meat anywhere near as tasty or fulfilling and they're so much more work to prepare compared to (example) chucking a steak in the pan.

I don't blame you. I bloody love meat too. I really miss lamb and beef, but I've yet to find somewhere that can guarantee me that the animals have lived their lives completely on pastures and not be finished off in a feed lot.

I don't think there's anything wrong with you wanting to eat meat. But I think that anyone eating meat should be making the effort to source free range animals that have lived a semblance of a normal life.

[Nic.B]

Nekhbet, on 10 February 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Quote

I didn't say it would stop anything- I said I would no longer support the industry.

I don't support puppyfarmers either but I don't think I can close down the industryby not supporting it. Good grief. A bit of realism please.

The thought of eating pork from a pig that has been battered to death makes me ill. I don't care what you think about my decision.

Because as soon as one video is released there is a plethora of people who suddenly convert to vegetarianism. This has been happening since before you were born and the whole time you were eating meat. I don't see how now suddenly it's really a statement of how fed up you are with animal welfare practices.

As for being a vegetarian ... what about eggs, fish and dairy. All of those industries have their own poor practices too. Vegetables ... what land did they clear and what poisons have they been spraying which has been killing the environment for years. Do your grains come from farmers who poison native wildlife?

Keep going like this until you starve to death. If people want to make a difference they need to support DPI, RSPCA and other welfare related groups in regularly checking establishments and doiung random spot checks at least 4-5 times a year. All abbatoirs and knackeries should have surveilance installed as a rule as far as I'm concerned, and not only should the staff member be charged but the entire company too for not keeping staff in check.

If you watch why that staff member hit the pig, it passed the stunning point and he obviously was not given anything else like a captive bolt to make sure.

I have only read the first few posts and the people involved are in my local area. It is a private abbatoir for a local butcher for human meat. I will be letting them know my thoughts.

Nekbet I agree they should have got it right the first time, they didnt though. Bashing them on the head after a shock is not the answer.

For those who dont know, the animals are stunned first with an electric shock and then given a bolt in the head. A bit like a gun which they then reuse for the 100 other animals.

There is no excuse for this sort of abuse. It is beyond my comprehension.

[~Anne~]

melzawelza, on 10 February 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Another one is www.humanechoice.com (maybe .au as well?)

www.humanechoice.com.au is the one I need. Thank you!!

It has loads of information to enable people to make an informed choice. This will help me when I choose my eggs next. The brand I normally buy is not listed which is frustrating.

[stormie]

Question though, does free range guarantee an animal has a humane slaughter? I only buy meat from a free range butcher, but I confess to not knowing anything about the slaughter process. If it's cruel and traumatic, it kind of makes the whole free range thing pointless. It's something I'll talk to my butcher about when I'm next in.

[~Anne~]

Yes, I'd also considered that. Hence why I'll just stick with buying eggs and not meat.

[melzawelza]

stormie, on 10 February 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Question though, does free range guarantee an animal has a humane slaughter? I only buy meat from a free range butcher, but I confess to not knowing anything about the slaughter process. If it's cruel and traumatic, it kind of makes the whole free range thing pointless. It's something I'll talk to my butcher about when I'm next in.

This is true, I think possibly the free range animals are sent to the same slaughterhouses as the non free range
I was thinking of that just after I posted actually.

Although if I had to choose for the animal I've eaten to have lived a good live and then be killed inhumanely, or to be killed humanely but have been battery farmed I know which I'd choose.

Still, I shouldn't have to bloody well choose. People should do their job properly and NOT BE INHUMANE TO ANIMALS. How hard is it!? Frustrates me.

[black_dog]

Nekhbet, on 10 February 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

As for being a vegetarian ... what about eggs, fish and dairy. All of those industries have their own poor practices too. Vegetables ... what land did they clear and what poisons have they been spraying which has been killing the environment for years. Do your grains come from farmers who poison native wildlife?

Keep going like this until you starve to death. If people want to make a difference they need to support DPI, RSPCA and other welfare related groups in regularly checking establishments and doiung random spot checks at least 4-5 times a year.

I disagree with this. I'm not a vegetarian, but was for a number of years, mainly due to the unsustainability of factory farming at western society levels.

We all draw the line somewhere, anything from not caring to being a fruitarian. You don't need to be a meat eater just because there is something wrong in every food sector. It's a personal choice, and every thing we do makes some difference. If you personally don't eat meat, then there is 74kg of animal each year that doesn't have to get killed.

[WoofnHoof]

melzawelza, on 10 February 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

stormie, on 10 February 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Question though, does free range guarantee an animal has a humane slaughter? I only buy meat from a free range butcher, but I confess to not knowing anything about the slaughter process. If it's cruel and traumatic, it kind of makes the whole free range thing pointless. It's something I'll talk to my butcher about when I'm next in.

This is true, I think possibly the free range animals are sent to the same slaughterhouses as the non free range
I was thinking of that just after I posted actually.

Although if I had to choose for the animal I've eaten to have lived a good live and then be killed inhumanely, or to be killed humanely but have been battery farmed I know which I'd choose.

Still, I shouldn't have to bloody well choose. People should do their job properly and NOT BE INHUMANE TO ANIMALS. How hard is it!? Frustrates me.

Yes free range animals go through the same abattoir, at least they did at the pork factory I was at so it's likely to be the same across other species. At present the only consumer controlled aspect of abattoir behaviour is those which are audited by the larger companies, I had a look on the McDonalds website and their tiny paragraph dedicated to animal welfare says they get their audits done by Ausmeat so it might be worth contacting them to see what their audit processes are?

[raz]

Nic.B, on 10 February 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

I have only read the first few posts and the people involved are in my local area. It is a private abbatoir for a local butcher for human meat.

Tha Animals Australia video in Indonesia was also taken in a private abbattoir but people here were so busy screaming about poor Bryan the Aussie bull they forgot to look in their own backyard. Pretty amazing, isnt it.

[Greytmate]

samoyedman, on 10 February 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

I confess you've described me to a T.

The thing is I crave meat (or is it the fat?). And chicken and fish. I really enjoy eating animal flesh.

I don't find veges and all the protein substitutes for meat anywhere near as tasty or fulfilling and they're so much more work to prepare compared to (example) chucking a steak in the pan.

Yes, I used to be a bit like that too. But it isn't a healthy way to eat and by changing the way you use meat, you can reduce the amount consumed. I don't think I could give up meat either, but animal cruelty does upset me a lot.

What makes meat so yummy are two things. The fat, and the maillard reaction. This flavour comes as a result of the cooking practice, it's not just about the ingredients. If you rapidly boiled up a piece of frozen beef and put that on your plate amongst a nice selection of freshly roasted Mediterranean vegetables in herbs and olive oil, guess which foods would taste better and be more satisfying?

It is a little harder to prepare vegetables, cereals and dairy food than it is to prepare meat, but the results are well worth it. I also think that there is a huge societal pressure to accept over-sized and unbalanced servings, where meat and potatoes dominate the plate, and the green food is a garnish. That takes some effort to overcome.

I do simple things to reduce the amount of meat I eat. For instance when I cook up a big pot of spag bol, it is only 1/4 mince, 1/4 celery, carrot, onion, garlic, and 1/2 tomato, tomato paste. That gives me a healthy proportion of meat to veges. But I put a lot of effort into browning the veges, so that I get the yummy maillard reaction going on.

I also often eat nuts as a snack, and they can sometimes be a good substitute for meat.

I am not a good cook by any means, but I made the changes and over a few weeks my body adjusted and stopped craving bad foods and started feeling normal hunger feelings. If you are interested in eating less meat, start trying recipes that combine meat and veges, and just gradually lower the amount of meat you put in it and replacing with yummy veges that you like.

This post has been edited by Greytmate: 10 February 2012 - 11:57 AM

[LoremIpsum]

~Anne~, on 10 February 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

melzawelza, on 10 February 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Another one is www.humanechoice.com (maybe .au as well?)

www.humanechoice.com.au is the one I need. Thank you!!

It has loads of information to enable people to make an informed choice. This will help me when I choose my eggs next. The brand I normally buy is not listed which is frustrating.

Thanks from me too.

I don't know. I might be with you Anne (on giving up entirely). I love meat but it's getting harder and harder to justify it.

[erinonthefarm]

Nekhbet, on 10 February 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Quote

I didn't say it would stop anything- I said I would no longer support the industry.

I don't support puppyfarmers either but I don't think I can close down the industryby not supporting it. Good grief. A bit of realism please.

The thought of eating pork from a pig that has been battered to death makes me ill. I don't care what you think about my decision.

Because as soon as one video is released there is a plethora of people who suddenly convert to vegetarianism. This has been happening since before you were born and the whole time you were eating meat. I don't see how now suddenly it's really a statement of how fed up you are with animal welfare practices.

As for being a vegetarian ... what about eggs, fish and dairy. All of those industries have their own poor practices too. Vegetables ... what land did they clear and what poisons have they been spraying which has been killing the environment for years. Do your grains come from farmers who poison native wildlife?

Keep going like this until you starve to death. If people want to make a difference they need to support DPI, RSPCA and other welfare related groups in regularly checking establishments and doiung random spot checks at least 4-5 times a year. All abbatoirs and knackeries should have surveilance installed as a rule as far as I'm concerned, and not only should the staff member be charged but the entire company too for not keeping staff in check.

Why do you have an issue with someone being vegetarian? Its a perfectly logical and unhypocritical response to watching an animal be killed and thinking "I don't want to be responsible for that nor could I do it myself"

Whenever someone argues with me about why I should eat meat, I wonder why if they are so happy doing it without remorse why do they need everyone else to be doing it too.