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How To Stop Rough Play Keeshond & Cocker Spaniel Puppy

#1 User is offline   Bear&Duke 

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:35 AM

I have an 18 month old male de-sexed Keeshond Bear and a four month old male Cocker Spaniel puppy Duke who seem to really love each other but Bear plays rough and it scares me. Duke loves Bear, they are always trying to get at each other and seem to really enjoy each other company but I need to teach Bear to play softer with Duke.

At times they are ok and will play nicely, taking turns being submissive; mostly Duke is on his back but sometimes Bear lets Duke climb all over him while heís on his back. But Bear can get really excited and doesnít listen when Duke is crying because heís hurting him. I am so scared about the size difference; Bear is 20kg, Duke only 6kg and I wonder if I intervene too much. As soon as Duke yelps I will pull Bear away and tell him No in a stern voice and then let him play with Duke again but within minutes Duke will be crying again. Bear also seems to pick on Duke ears and will be mouthing them and pulling them.

Now Bear has other behavioral issues which we are dealing with a trainer as he is overly dominant with us and he seems to be coming along quite well with that training but it doesnít seem to be applying to his play time with Duke.

Their play is ALWAYS supervised at the moment due to Bearís inability to back off when Duke tells him to but I need to know how to get him past this rough play so they can spend time unsupervised and eventually spend the day together outside while my partner and I are at work. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

#2 User is offline   heroeswit 

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 06:00 PM

I'm sorry I can't help but I am dealing with a similar situation now and will be interested to see other responses

#3 Guest_lavendergirl_*

Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:21 PM

I don't have the expertise to help either but wonder what your trainer says about the situation? I would be very worried about the 4 month old cocker being hurt or otherwise traumatised. You could perhaps try cross posting in either General or Training to elicit some more responses from those with some training background. I hope you can get some help.

#4 User is offline   Bear&Duke 

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:55 PM

Its really hard isn't it dwilds...

Thanks for the tip Lavendergirl, i have posted in the General Forum as well. My trainer thinks that once we get Bear under our control where by he stops challenging us it will flow on to Duke, but I can't say that I'm hopeful. They have also told us Bear's barking will stop once we get him under control but it has actually got worse :cry: I know it usually gets worse before it gets better but i am at my wits end.

#5 User is offline   Red Fox 

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:29 PM

My only advice is to keep them separate. It's not that hard, just fence off part of your yard or build a run. Dogs can still be 'together' outside but can't get at each other, you will be more relaxed knowing the pup is safe too.

#6 User is offline   heroeswit 

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:15 PM

View PostSecretKei, on 15 February 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

My only advice is to keep them separate. It's not that hard, just fence off part of your yard or build a run. Dogs can still be 'together' outside but can't get at each other, you will be more relaxed knowing the pup is safe too.


This is what I currently do and it is working, the other dogs are slowly learning to be calm so they can be with the pup but until the pup is a lot bigger they are going to be separate, except for supervised times together or the pup decides to climb the fence Posted Image because she is over excited to get to me. though she has only been with me for 3 weeks I have a lot of training to do with all my dogs.

#7 User is offline   Bear&Duke 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 09:25 AM

View PostSecretKei, on 15 February 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

My only advice is to keep them separate. It's not that hard, just fence off part of your yard or build a run. Dogs can still be 'together' outside but can't get at each other, you will be more relaxed knowing the pup is safe too.


I agree, their play time is very limited at the moment as it's too stressful for all of us. I think in a way this makes it worse as it's such a novelty when they do get to play a little but maybe once Duke grows more he will have the weight behind him to tell Bear off. The trainer has also suggested a good dog park where the owners are real dog people and will allow their dogs to tell Bear off when he's playing too rough. Were we are the owners have a fit if their dog even shows slight annoyance even though I ask that they let their dog put him in his place. Unfortunately this means Bear thinks is rules over everyone and everything :banghead:

Patience, Patience... Can you tell it's not my strong point? :grimace:

Thanks so much for your help

#8 User is offline   heroeswit 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 09:55 AM

I'm sorry but that advice from your trainer is ridiculous Don't put your dog or anyone elses dog in that position because it will just lead to fights and won't do anything to help your training if I was you I would find a new trainer

This post has been edited by dwilds: 16 February 2012 - 09:56 AM


#9 User is offline   Bear&Duke 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:41 AM

It seems that is the general consensus in my other post too. Check this one out Dwilds there is some good advice in there

http://www.dolforums...top-rough-play/

#10 User is offline   Red Fox 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:02 AM

View PostBear&Duke, on 16 February 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

View PostSecretKei, on 15 February 2012 - 10:29 PM, said:

My only advice is to keep them separate. It's not that hard, just fence off part of your yard or build a run. Dogs can still be 'together' outside but can't get at each other, you will be more relaxed knowing the pup is safe too.


I agree, their play time is very limited at the moment as it's too stressful for all of us. I think in a way this makes it worse as it's such a novelty when they do get to play a little..

Yeah it can be. I keep my two completely separate, we use a combo of baby gates, crates/pens and a dog run to do so. It can be a little stressful in the beginning but as you form a routine it becomes very easy and second nature

Quote

..but maybe once Duke grows more he will have the weight behind him to tell Bear off. The trainer has also suggested a good dog park where the owners are real dog people and will allow their dogs to tell Bear off when he's playing too rough. Were we are the owners have a fit if their dog even shows slight annoyance even though I ask that they let their dog put him in his place. Unfortunately this means Bear thinks is rules over everyone and everything :banghead:

Patience, Patience... Can you tell it's not my strong point? :grimace:

Thanks so much for your help


View Postdwilds, on 16 February 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

I'm sorry but that advice from your trainer is ridiculous Don't put your dog or anyone elses dog in that position because it will just lead to fights and won't do anything to help your training if I was you I would find a new trainer


I agree with Dwilds 100% here. You do NOT want other dogs telling off your pup. In doing so you are taking a huge risk. Do you know these dogs? Are you 100% sure that they are reliable in temperament and wont damage your pup? Not a risk I would take I can assure you!

A pup is very impressionable and a small mistake now could easily lead to a lifetime of dog aggression. The majority of dogs just are just not solid enough to let it slide and you are setting yourself up for potential disaster IMO.

It's also not natural or necessary for dogs to interact with those outside their own pack - no matter how 'nice' we may think it is.

What you need is KNOWN, TRUSTED, NEUTRAL dogs who will ignore your dog.

What state are you in? I'd seriously consider finding yourself a new trainer...

AS far as the dominance issues, have a look at Leerburg. Heaps of free articles there, particularly the ones establishing pack structure. I'll see if I can find a linky for you.Posted Image

ETA: have a look here: http://leerburg.com/articles.htm

These should get you started
Ground work / establishing pack structure with Adult dogs: http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm
Introducing dogs/puppies: http://leerburg.com/...oducingdogs.htm
Dog parks: http://leerburg.com/dogparks.htm
Socialisation- puppies: http://leerburg.com/...lizepuppies.htm
Puppy groundwork: http://leerburg.com/...ygroundwork.htm







This post has been edited by SecretKei: 16 February 2012 - 11:14 AM


#11 User is offline   Red Fox 

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:04 AM

Also

Quote


Bear thinks is rules over everyone and everything



That's a handler problem, not a dog problem. The handler needs to put the dog in his place, not other dogs.Posted Image

#12 User is offline   kirst_goldens 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:26 PM

geeze that leeburg guy is hard on the people seeking his advice!!!! i also dont agree with alot of what he says... im all for using runs and crates etc.. but it is unrealistic for pet people who wish to have 2 dogs to not let them play lol he thinks they should be kept seperate and not be left unsupervised.. doesnt sound like much fun to me...! i know many people who have strong leadership with their dogs nad they have 6 or so together in the yrd all day unsupervised and never a drama...

#13 User is offline   Red Fox 

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:38 PM

View Postkirst_goldens, on 17 February 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

geeze that leeburg guy is hard on the people seeking his advice!!!! i also dont agree with alot of what he says... im all for using runs and crates etc.. but it is unrealistic for pet people who wish to have 2 dogs to not let them play lol he thinks they should be kept seperate and not be left unsupervised.. doesnt sound like much fun to me...! i know many people who have strong leadership with their dogs nad they have 6 or so together in the yrd all day unsupervised and never a drama...


Perhaps a little extreme in his ideas but he he knows what he is talking about. His pack structure advice is similar to Ruff Love, just more to the point and not packaged as 'nicely'.

I don't see how it is unrealistic or difficult to keep dogs separated either? Perhaps a waste of time for some pet owners but a huge advantage for many sport/working dogs. Fun comes from the owner/handler, not other dogs in the household...




#14 Guest_lavendergirl_*

Posted 18 February 2012 - 09:59 PM

Extreme is putting it mildly. His treatment for separation anxiety is basically to lock the dog in a wire crate with a bark collar on to stop it being "stupid". :eek:

#15 User is offline   Red Fox 

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 01:10 PM

View Postlavendergirl, on 18 February 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Extreme is putting it mildly. His treatment for separation anxiety is basically to lock the dog in a wire crate with a bark collar on to stop it being "stupid". :eek:


Yeah, yeah and once he advised that you should bash a dog over the head with a shovel for fence fighting...

Use common sense and take what you need. There is plenty of very useful advice available on that site and there is certainly nothing nasty in the links I posted above :shrug:



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