Obedience & Rally-o

[BrigadoonRose]

Zeus had his first session at puppy school today which we both thoroughly enjoyed. Our trainer thinks Zeus has some potential in obedience trialling. Being a complete noob in this area I have no idea what this would involve.

So I've done some reading and found there is both obedience & rally. I'd love to hear your experiences as far as time commitment involved in training for competition in each of these, & why you chose one over the other (or do them both!)

[huski]

I have done a bit of rally but obedience is really my passion!

There's no simple answer as to how much time it takes, it really depends on you and your dog and what your goals are for how you want your dog to work. My youngest dog is 16 months and I am taking my time with her to get her working exactly how I want her but I am also training her to be competitive not just to compete (if that makes sense) so I have a very specific goal in mind as to how I want everything.

I would suggest going to lots of rally and obed trials as a spectator and volunteer to steward and help out at your club trials. You can get a good idea of what is involved in competing in each sport and also what competitors you enjoy watching (to give you an idea on what kind of 'style' you like and might want to achieve with your dog)

Edited July 27, 2013 by huski

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Rally is probably good for starting out, because you can talk to your dog and praise lots. Obedience - it's more formal and restrictive, you can only praise your dog between exercises - which can be quite far apart.

[Natsu chan]

The how long does it take to train question is a bit like the how long is a piece of string question. The answer is it depends, it depends on you and how seriously you take it, if you want to be competitive (as in do you care if you win the ring or not? Or are you just happy with passes towards titles), your dog and the sort of support you have with training. Myself I train in short bursts, say 15 minutes all up a day in 5 minute blocks but I do it every day with the occasional couple of days or week break if the need arises. My young girl is two years old and has been trained like this since she was 9 weeks old. She started trialling in earnest this year and gained two titles in a matter of weeks.

I do obedience and rally. I had to begin with just done a rally trial as it was there, my young girl has been trained with the higher levels of obedience as an end goal and when she hit the rings this year the first suitable trial was a rally trial. So I took myself off and learnt the signs and toddled off and gained two 90 plus passes. It was great fun! So we've kept going with it and the obedience. Rally novice is I think a really nice entry point for first time handlers and dogs as it's not as serious as obedience tends to be. I enjoy obedience, I like the precision of it and the discipline and it is also a stepping stone for all sorts of other fun things you can do. I think Huski's suggestion to go to trials and watch or steward is a good one but there is no reason why you can't have a go if you are willing to put the work in and it is fun. The best bit is when everything just goes well and you feel like you and your dog are going along doing the exercises or stations as if you were both of one mind, that is just lovely. Ribbons and titles while very nice are secondary. :)

Hope that sort of helps answer your questions in amongst the waffle!

[BrigadoonRose]

Thanks huski, mrb & natsu chan.

Short bursts during the day is certainly achievable for me. I was concerned I'd be looking at a much greater weekly commitment, which might be difficult playing Mum's taxi to 3 kids. The length of time to become competitive isn't a worry. I'm fortunate to work from home, so we pretty much do the short burst thing anyway.

Good advice to get along and watch some events, and I will do that.

Given that rally allows feedback/reward on the go, do people tend to start their dogs younger there?

[The Spotted Devil]

Yes, definitely a few minutes here and there every day is more effective than big blocks. I tend to think that the more experienced you get as a handler, the higher your expectations (especially thinking beyond the first few titles) and the older your dog when they first hit the ring!

That said, it's hard to know when to hit the ring, particularly if you're a new handler. Take video of your training, review it critically, keep a training diary, enlist the help of experienced competitors (on this forum too - post videos on You Tube for us!) and get along to trials to watch and steward when you can. Keep an eye out for smooth handlers who are calm when things go wrong - watch and learn!

When you do take the plunge remember that the relationship between you and your dog is THE most important thing. And it's perfectly acceptable to make at least 100 mistakes with your first trialling dog...you won't make the same mistakes with your 2nd and 3rd dogs but you will probably make different ones :laugh:

I mostly do agility with both dogs and retrieving with Em. Zig does obedience when I have time and Em will return to it when retrieving is less of a focus.

[Natsu chan]

Some of the obedience judges are now putting their baby dogs (by which I mean 2 and under) through rally first, but and it is a big but these are experienced handlers. It is better to make haste slowly. There's plenty of time and in all honesty it is better to let them grow a brain first. Remember you can be trialling a dog for 8 years or more so why hurry? I see people do this, they put a lot of pressure on themselves and their dogs and in the process the stop having fun.

When you get to the maybe we're ready stage, well we have FOOs in Victoria at KCC twice a year, 4 sessions each in Autumn and Spring. These are not for competition run throughs under experienced judges for I think $5 a go. They are a tremendous help and good fun. The judges want people to succeed and they will help and encourage you and give you plenty of advice. FOOs always need helpers too and you learn lots. :)

Trials in Victoria are listed here. Click on the underlined entries and you will open a flyer.

http://www.vicdog.com/

TSD is right though, someone once said to me if you don't retrain your first dog at least a few times you're doing something wrong!

Seriously though if you want something small to start with google "hind end awareness" because that is good fun great for babies and very helpful for rally, obedience, dancing and so forth.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Natsu chan

[BrigadoonRose]

Yes, definitely a few minutes here and there every day is more effective than big blocks. I tend to think that the more experienced you get as a handler, the higher your expectations (especially thinking beyond the first few titles) and the older your dog when they first hit the ring!

That said, it's hard to know when to hit the ring, particularly if you're a new handler. Take video of your training, review it critically, keep a training diary, enlist the help of experienced competitors (on this forum too - post videos on You Tube for us!) and get along to trials to watch and steward when you can. Keep an eye out for smooth handlers who are calm when things go wrong - watch and learn!

When you do take the plunge remember that the relationship between you and your dog is THE most important thing. And it's perfectly acceptable to make at least 100 mistakes with your first trialling dog...you won't make the same mistakes with your 2nd and 3rd dogs but you will probably make different ones :laugh:

I mostly do agility with both dogs and retrieving with Em. Zig does obedience when I have time and Em will return to it when retrieving is less of a focus.

Thanks TSD. Great idea to do videos. I fully expect to make masses of mistakes

I like the sound of retrieving, too, after reading your posts on that thread. A lot of it makes my head spin, but it still sounds like a fun challenge for dog & handler :)

Some of the obedience judges are now putting their baby dogs (by which I mean 2 and under) through rally first, but and it is a big but these are experienced handlers. It is better to make haste slowly. There's plenty of time and in all honesty it is better to let them grow a brain first. Remember you can be trialling a dog for 8 years or more so why hurry? I see people do this, they put a lot of pressure on themselves and their dogs and in the process the stop having fun.

When you get to the maybe we're ready stage, well we have FOOs in Victoria at KCC twice a year, 4 sessions each in Autumn and Spring. These are not for competition run throughs under experienced judges for I think $5 a go. They are a tremendous help and good fun. The judges want people to succeed and they will help and encourage you and give you plenty of advice. FOOs always need helpers too and you learn lots. :)

Trials in Victoria are listed here. Click on the underlined entries and you will open a flyer.

http://www.vicdog.com/

TSD is right though, someone once said to me if you don't retrain your first dog at least a few times you're doing something wrong!

Seriously though if you want something small to start with google "hind end awareness" because that is good fun great for babies and very helpful for rally, obedience, dancing and so forth.

I sound a bit like I'm in a rush, don't I? I'm not though - just trying to get straight in my mind what I could expect. And after our first session yesterday, I can see it's going to take lots of practice to get my brain, body & mouth all working together, never mind poor Zeus! :laugh: Off to do some Googling & check out some dates.

[Natsu chan]

BR if you live on the KCC Park (which is in Skye) side of the city Dogs Vic has a dog library too, which is a big help. I usually train up there once or twice a week and I'm always happy to help people. Granted that I'm not the most experience handler but still. :laugh:

The other thought is tracking which is good fun too but the kids might find they need to find another taxi when you get to trialling stage.....

[The Spotted Devil]

Tracking is something I'd love to do with Zig one day!

Yes, FOO is brilliant - I went a few times with Ziggy and it gave me the confidence I needed to enter a trial. Where are you based BR? Maybe we can point you in the right direction...?

Retrieving is awesome :D I was hooked the first time I ran a very generous DOLer's dog - first in training and then in a trial. You do need a gundog...and being slightly addicted to the sport helps too :laugh:

Edited July 28, 2013 by The Spotted Devil

[BrigadoonRose]

BR if you live on the KCC Park (which is in Skye) side of the city Dogs Vic has a dog library too, which is a big help. I usually train up there once or twice a week and I'm always happy to help people. Granted that I'm not the most experience handler but still. :laugh:

The other thought is tracking which is good fun too but the kids might find they need to find another taxi when you get to trialling stage.....

Thanks for the offer. I'm out Geelong way, so Skye is a bit of a trek though (if it's where I think it is).

I saw a little tracking on YouTube, and yes it looks

like fun too! Maybe I should start stocking up on 2 minute noodles & get the kids to work on their treddly endurance just to be safe :-D

[Daisy.Tea]

Is there a FOOs type of set up somewhere in nsw? That sounds perfect. I'm starting with rally. Because the talking helps daisy calm down as she is quite young and gets really excited. But at the same time loves working and training. Also I feel like it'll be easier on me because I lack a lot of confidence in myself. My instructors said I should start thinking about a rally novice trial, I just worked out how to enter, but am afraid I will be laughed at ridiculously due to my lack of experience and first time trialling.

[BrigadoonRose]

Tracking is something I'd love to do with Zig one day!

Yes, FOO is brilliant - I went a few times with Ziggy and it gave me the confidence I needed to enter a trial. Where are you based BR? Maybe we can point you in the right direction...?

Retrieving is awesome :D I was hooked the first time I ran a very generous DOLer's dog - first in training and then in a trial. You do need a gundog...and being slightly addicted to the sport helps too :laugh:

I can tell you love retrieving. It sticks out a mile in your posts :-)

When you say gundog, do you mean breed or one that's been trained under a gun? Are you retrieving actual game that's been shot in the retrieving trials?

This dog sports business is a whole new world to me & I'm getting a bit fascinated by it all!

[Tassie]

BR - not TSD (obviously :) ) but just to answer part of your question. Gundog as in breed .. the list is here Group 3 Gundogs

For the starter level, associate (i.e. not registered purebreed dogs) are eligible as long as they are a Gundog breed.

2.2. Main and Limited Registered Gundogs (including de-sexed registered Gundogs) and

Associate Dogs of a variety accepted by a Member Body as a Gundog shall be permitted to

compete in Retrieving Ability Test for Gundogs in all States and/or Territories of Australia.

For the main titles, only (ANKC) registered purebred gundogs are eligible.

And yes - the dog sport business is a whole new world - a growing one, and one where you can have ltos and lots of fun with your dog. The good news - a lot of the foundation training is similar across many disciplines - hind-end/rear-end awareness being an example. The bad news .... highly addictive

And I'm another who is not a believer in rushing dogs through. IMHO it's really good to spend time on the basic foundations .. which are starting to train the components .. and then you can start putting things together as the dog matures, and is able to cope better with the inevitable pressure we put on them - even when we're trying hard not to. :)

@ TSD ... yes .. you should do tracking - in your spare time. Zig would love it. :D

[Natsu chan]

BR TSD means the gun dog group which is group 3. http://www.ankc.org.au/Breeds.aspx?gid=3 Some sports like retrieving and herding are restricted to breeds of dogs who were bred to perform the role. So for retrieving that is the group 3 breeds. :) All breeds of dogs in Australia (well world wide but lets not complicate things!) are divided into groups. The groups each have both a number and a name so Group 1 (Toys) is all the toy breeds so you have the little dogs together, pugs, poms, maltese and the like, then Group 2 (Terriers) so in that group you get Jack Russells, Bull Terriers, Staffords etc. Does that make sense?

BR as you're in Geelong I would contact Nekhbet (that's her DOL name) she's out that way and is brilliant.

Daisy Tea you can always go to a trial and watch first but don't worry no one ever laughs at anyone but themselves. Even the most experienced people have brain fades and do silly things. Heaven knows if I ever get through a trial without buggering anything up I'll need to be resuscitated! :laugh:

I have no idea about FOOs in NSW ask your club if there's anywhere you can do run throughs. FOOs (which is for friends of obedience) is a fund raiser that OTEC (Obedience, tracking, and endurance committee) runs to buy equipment and what not for trials up at KCC as not all clubs have there own. Well that's my understanding anyway. :)

[BrigadoonRose]

Thanks Tassie & NC. So much to learn!

It's actually Nekhbet's fault I'm asking all these questions ;) We started her puppy school on Saturday, where she planted the seed in my mind :)

[The Spotted Devil]

Tracking is something I'd love to do with Zig one day!

Yes, FOO is brilliant - I went a few times with Ziggy and it gave me the confidence I needed to enter a trial. Where are you based BR? Maybe we can point you in the right direction...?

Retrieving is awesome :D I was hooked the first time I ran a very generous DOLer's dog - first in training and then in a trial. You do need a gundog...and being slightly addicted to the sport helps too :laugh:

I can tell you love retrieving. It sticks out a mile in your posts :-)

When you say gundog, do you mean breed or one that's been trained under a gun? Are you retrieving actual game that's been shot in the retrieving trials?

This dog sports business is a whole new world to me & I'm getting a bit fascinated by it all!

:laugh: I am rather transparent! Yes, what everyone else said is spot on. We are lucky here that any dog from group 3 (gundogs) can compete in retrieving trials - not so in the US where it's only the official "retrievers". It does help if your gundog has a good amount of retrieving instinct but it is a complex sport. When we train we use "dummies" but when we trial we shoot over them (with blanks) at dead game. The latter sends my Springer through the roof in terms of motivation - it's amazing the difference it makes.

I will get there with tracking one day Tassie!!! My goal is to focus on tracking when I retire Zig from agility - that won't be anytime soon though!

[Tassie]

@ TSD ... but what if Zig is like Kirra - eveready batteries for agility, so far - 11.5 and still going. Mind you, she is a smaller, lighter dog. :D She's done tracking concurrently - up to the urban track know in T & S - we've done a little bit - she finds it nice and challenging. The lil big man is still trying to finish his paddock tracking - we get another go at his Test 7 on Saturday.

Still, you're excused - the gundog stuff is pretty darned time-consuming - although it always sounds like heaps of fun.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

pardon my complete ignorance but what is FOOs?

Is that like a mock trial - that is like a real trial but doesn't count for titles?

What does the FOO stand for.

(google was not my friend).

[Tassie]

FOO = Friends of Obedience. - As TSD says - it was an initiative of Dogs Vic Obedience Tracking and Endurance Committee. A group of judges decided to get together and offer triallers an opportunity to have ring run throughs, with rings set ups, judges, stewards etc.. People have to be prepared to help steward etc.

From what I understand it's been very successful in encouraging people to trial and helping them to trial more successfully. These days, you have to book in ahead of time, I believe. :D