Luke GSP

Hi all, 

I am hoping I can come to an arrangement with someone importing from the USA, I want to import some US dog crates for my dogs. I'm wondering if anyone would be interested in using the crate I want and I will cover the cost of the crate so it saves you that cost off your import?

im looking at a Gunner kennel or similar, so very good quality and safe for your pup!

I want two, one cocker size and one GSP size.

Hi all, my daughter is looking at doing a vet assistant course at a cost of approximately $3,500 which is 300 hours of study with tutor support. The course is with my online learning.

just wondering if any here have done the course or have any opinion on validity or worthwhile (ness)

all opinions welcome

Hi all, i was on a local (to me) Facebook page and there is a guy trying to rehome a pair of staffs that live together as he is moving and cannot take them (one is 8 and the other 1.5 years) I suggested he try staff rescue but said they only take rescues, not surrenders, is that correct???

are there any other options? they are in sydney, id take them but have 2 GSP's and a crazy cocker already :)

thank all, great feedback and info, much appreciated.

thanks for the replies guys, The traction issue should be ok as my dogs aren't supposed to be zooming round the house, we try and promote calm behaviour (I did say try :laugh: )

Just as an added question, is it worth spending the extra to get the ones with longer "warranties"?

Hi All,

As per the description, we are considering laminate flooring as our carpets need replacing, but I'm a little concerned how they go with dogs on them? I know that they are a bit slippery and sometimes dogs cant get traction, but my main concern is if their claws wear them out? we have two pointers and a cocker spaniel. They are in the laundry and garden during the day, then come in at night, they are pretty calm when inside in the evenings and not running about.

Does anyone have experience with laminates and dogs that can advise?

Kavik,

not sure if this link will work, but maybe have a watch of this as this to me is a great demonstration of a great working cocker.

They tend to look like they are wriggling everywhere because their bum never stops wagging.

Word of warning, from memory there may be some footage of game being shot in the video, so please do not watch if offended by such content.

The videos I've been watching all look like very happy busy little dogs - their tail is always going!

Kavik,

I used to deal with them a lot when gameshooting in the UK, I never owned one, but I've seen plenty working. They can be quite soft and repond very well to team work. A gamekeeper I met once said that you don't tell a cocker to do anything, you ask them, and if you ask nicely enough, they'll do it. When they do "do it"however, they do it with gusto and focus, and with a heap of happy.

I keep torturing myself about getting one and have spoken to a couple of the top trainers in the UK about importing one, there are lots of hurdles, cost, time etc etc, but if it all comes good, what a dog

Hi All,

It appears that I might need to buy another car. Up until now, I have had a older (2003) nissan pathfinder 4X4. My dilema is that I would actually prefer a Nissan Navarra kingcab, with a ARB box on the back. This would mean that doggie smells etc are kept in the rear tray and easily pressure washer cleaned, compared to having the rear of the vehicle as an extension of the main cab. So here is my dilemma, up until now my three dogs (2 X GSP's and a Cocker) have ridden in the back of the main cab boot area, which obviously benefits from any heating or cooling that we are using in the main cab. My concern is, would the dogs be ok in the back of a ute with one of the plastic covers over the top? I was going to try and get one with windows at the side so that there could be ventilation etc, but wasn't sure what your thoughts would be, as obviously without having one, I have no idea how hot these utes get if ventilated when driving along (obviously I am not talking about leaving them in the vehicle when it is stationary) In the UK the guys threr did this all the time, but obviously our summers are considerably warmer than theirs.

Any advice or experiences would be much appreciated.

Personally I don't even acknowledge my dogs until they are calm, and I mean calm, not just sitting or standing still, at any other time than I want them to be excited such as when retrieving or training as with three of them it can get to crazy town real quick if you want it to. ;-)

From day one I walk them in to the house holding their collar and walk them to their bed inside. Any crazy town and they go back out side 5 minute break and then we start again. Once they will walk in without me holding the collar, I introduce the fact that the dog needs to sit in it's bed in the laundry to gain access,(they always have access to the laundry, I just open the internal door and stand in the way so they can't go past) at first just getting in the bed, then sitting in the bed, then sitting in the bed and increasing duration. eventually ending up that they all get in their beds and then wait until they are told they can come in one by one (by name). They are still expected to walk in calmly and then go to their bed area in our main living space.

I taught my GSP to fetch through the traditional steps of "force fetch" training

Fetch (place object in mouth)

Hold (hold object in mouth)

Give (place object in my hand)

Once actions were learnt I dropped the hold and now just use fetch (go to object, pick it up and return to me)and give (self explanatory).

But rather than force I used reward. It was actually a really great exercise and better than just teaching "fetch" as I can use the steps to help train other things. It also helped with generalisation of the object as in reality it doesn't matter whether i want the dog to place a ball, can, bottle, tug, broom, my arm, my finger or some socks in its mouth, if you point at it and tell her to fetch, she puts it in her mouth and holds it till you tell her to "give"

Up until I did this she was the most frustrating dog, as she would often greet you by picking something up in her mouth and bringing it to you, but if you threw something she would either stand looking at you, or run pick it up and then drop it.

Are you sure that there is no underlying medical reason why she won't jump? I would just get that checked out first, if all clear then carry on, but worth a double check. :)

My two GSP's didn't want to jump in to the back of my car either, I tried all the usual things of conditioning them to the car being a nice place (tidbits to find in the back of the car, feeding them there etc etc) but they still refused to jump, preferring to be picked up. I then had a break through, I took them to the kennels for a couple of days and when i went to pick them up both of them came straight out the kennel and jumped staright in the back of the car without even being asked. With that in mind, I made sure to go to very "safe" places in my car for the next few outings and if either dog refused to jump in, I would secure them to a fence or fixture, and drive off. I wouldn't drive very far (maybe 20-25 meters) I would then stop, wait for a few seconds before reversing up, untethering the dog and seeing if they were a little more "motivated". I only had to do it once with my male GSP and a couple of times with my female, and they never refuse now, the back of the car opens up, they wait to be asked to "jump" and in they go.

The big thing was finding out that they wouldn't, not couldn't do it.

Ha! I've got my first whistle injury. Juggling Dalmatian and setting Em up with whistle in mouth I somehow ended up with a cut on my top lip. Weird!!!

Monday night was agility training so Tuesday was single marks with the BB and yesterday I did lining and handling. Marks were pretty good (except when I landed one in a tree) and I set up a few where she could see the up arc but not the down. She was full of beans yesterday and I have nowhere to run her that is safe (ie snakes, grass seeds, hunting temptations) so I trained her pretty hard although it barely took the edge off her. I worked on lots of straight backs through cheaty cover and then moved on to a couple of very tight 3 leg lining blinds. She started off a bit rough on both exercises but showed heaps of improvement. Sits were sloppy so will do some work on those. She was covered in black, sticky mud so I finished with a simple across water blind with hand thrown memory marks either side. She needed one reminder not to get the easy mark.

Hi TSD,

Do you use a round slim "silent" type whistle? I know a lot of the gundog folk in blighty put a bit of silicone tube on the end so that they have a soft rubber tube in their mouth rather than the metal whistle end, more comfortable for long day use and more likely to have the same number of front teth as what you started the day with :)

I guess I have my own methods of training - lots of shaping, impulse control games - and I really don't see the need. My dogs know that sit means sit until you're told otherwise, delivery I shape (and am fussy) and handling is a tougher concept than we think, especially when you've got suction and cover to deal with. I try to split, not lump.

I'll still be splitting at first, at least until individual behaviours are relatively solid. Believe me, I don't believe that it is a miracle program, but as I said previously, from what I have seen, it seems to be a very effective way to get concepts to be understood and repeated, I'll let you know how we go.

Hi TSD,

Is there a reason that you don't use it? interested to hear if anyone has found any negative pitfalls (so I can avoid them hopefully :) )

It's not something that I had considered before, but I've seen some fairly impressive results with it and working cockers (who have notorious dancing feet and abilities as cheeky monkeys)It also seemed a technique that you could train with for a fairly extended time as for some reason it seemed to keep the dogs very motivated and happy.

Hi All,

I've been doing some research and gathering info on placeboard training and gundogs to improve delivery, directional work and steadiness and spent the break over Christmas building my boards and I'm about to start the training, Just wondering if any of you other gundog types have used it? did it help? any drills that you found particularly good?

Huski said

"I have never met a working cocker but I would really like to!"

Just give me a call next time you are in Victoria and you can meet Alice

Alice looks like a beauty JRG, I'm hoping to get the chance to meet her myself next time i'm in Vic. Thanks for those contacts as well, as they have been really helpful :)

Moving on, I really don't like your idea of bringing in a bitch that's already had 3-4 litters and breeding her on.

I'd bring in a younger bitch - or two.

This.

I certainly wouldn't want to breed with a bitch that had had so many litters.

I wouldn't either, long term, and if an suitable FTCH bitch became available with fewer litters, then obviously I would pursue that. however as per the ANKC code of ethics

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member’s Member Body

So although not desirable it would appear that it is not seen as out of the question.

That's their rule, mine is different. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

I'd also want veterinary documentation the bitch was still able to whelp a litter before she came out. Some girls don't cope well ad you could end up with an infertile girl.

I don't disagree and good advice about the vet cert, as I said, it depends what is available at the time, if an suitable bitch is available That has less litter then obviously I would go that way. All depends what is available at the time.

Huski,

this should give you an idea of what they can be like working

and as a family pet

Moving on, I really don't like your idea of bringing in a bitch that's already had 3-4 litters and breeding her on.

I'd bring in a younger bitch - or two.

This.

I certainly wouldn't want to breed with a bitch that had had so many litters.

I wouldn't either, long term, and if an suitable FTCH bitch became available with fewer litters, then obviously I would pursue that. however as per the ANKC code of ethics

14. A member shall not breed a bitch (except under extenuating circumstances) causing it to whelp more than six times without prior veterinary certification of fitness for further breeding, and without prior approval of the member’s Member Body

So although not desirable it would appear that it is not seen as out of the question.

Maybe do a little more research on how Weims, GSPs and other HPR dogs actually hunt. They are never supposed to bring down a healthy animal, not even a pig.

I am a little confused why you are being so snide. I am not afraid that I cannot handle a working Wei, I am concerned that you may be wasting your money. As I said, this is up to you, but actually learning about something you would like to do is probably not going to be a bad thing. And neither is knowing what a dog you own was meant to do in the past (even if you no longer work your dog).

Not keeping all the pups on as a preferred option is exactly what I said, maybe you also need to read more carefully. Having other people raise and work pups still gives you a chance to see what kind of dog your breeding program produces.

I don't think you read my post properly at all and since you obviously do not want genuine advice, but would rather people telling you how great your idea is, I will no longer try to offer advice or insight.

The only reason i mentioned bringing down an animal (as opposed to hunting, pointing or retrieving) was due to your statement about weims killing a fox in cover. This i was surprised at as working HPR breeds in my mind do exactly what it says on the tin hunt (find or track the game) point (show the position of the game and flush on command) retrieve (bring the dead game back to the hunter) you seemed to be intimating that "working weims" actually went in on the game. obviously any gundog is expected to locate and fetch injured game and hence if that is what you are refering to, i would suggest that you research gundog breeds in general. I can assure you that any true hunter would want their dog to locate, and retrieve any injured game a long time before it went for a dead one.

this is for two reasons

1, dispatch the game as quickly as possible

2, keepers don't get paid for runners that get away, they get paid for game in the game cart (from a commercial POV) whilst an animal can escape, you run the risk of not eating (from a traditional sense) same thing, different risk

other than pointing, what exactly do you feel that a HPR breed does that any gundog doesn't do?

did I not mention like minded and adding to existing bloodlines? would that not have covered off the fact that maybe i wasn't planning to have litters keep one and then sell the rest to families through gumtree? I'm not looking for people to tell me its a great idea. I am assuming that as a pure bred dog forum, there are probably people on here that have started, or been there at the early stages of developing a breed in Australia (possibly minority breeds) and i would have loved to hear from them, the challenges, costs and considerations that they learned through being part of the beginnings of a breed.

so genuine advice that i would have liked is

in regard to owning/breeding a non main stream breed

importing a dog from the UK for breeding (especially a titled show or working due to the fact that they will probably be older)

what you have done is question the "value" of importing them based on your perception of cost versus benefit in your eyes, and question whether it is wise to have or promote a working line breed based on "issues" that it would appear only affect "working" lines, despite our pounds seeming to portray a different picture.

As to human aggression and working dogs, all i can say is that any gundog breeder or trainer that I have known that was faced with a TRULY aggressive dog, whether that be DA or HA would not of had that dog around for very long, (im not talking about raising the alarm guarding property) I'm talking about true aggression.

(...)

In regard to weims, the only working ones I have seen were HPR or peg dogs much the same as a GSP, What trait is it that you feel would be so uniquely negative about a working line weim, compared to say a working line GSP?

I hear what you are saying about ability in pups from a FTCH mating, and of course you would expect all of the pups to have working ability and drive, but I would also expect that some would stand out and make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Obviously with such small litter sizes and the fact that, people interested in them would probably have at least a passing interest in trial-ling, shooting or at least gundogs, I would expect that anyone that WANTED a working line cocker would have at least a vague idea of what they are getting in to. :)

The Weims was for Blackjaq :)

In regard to people having an idea, as you said, there are working Springer lines already here, they seem to have no greater issue with puppies going to homes than any other breed, (unless there is a disproportionate amount of working line spaniels in all the dog pounds that I don't know of? ) so I don't see why a working cocker would be so different a prospect? What exactly do you think that a working line cocker does that is going to create a greater issue than any other type of dog, working line or not, if purchased by an uninformed owner? Assuming that there would be an uninformed owner? Not sure why one would seek out WORKING line cocker in particular rather than any one of the myriad of breeds and puppies available on a much wider basis?

The biggest difference for me would be that in reality the people interested, and that would be involved are a very small group, who are all interested in having a level of diversity to be able to draw from, when you look at the DOL adverts, there are plenty of dog breeds that require "management" (in fact you could argue that all breeds require a level of management if they are to be brought up to be good canine citizens)that have permanent puppies available 365 days a year from multiple different breeders. Most of which, I would assume are limited register pups being sold on as the breeder didn't feel that they were of good enough confirmation. Sorry for being thick, but I honestly cannot see how limited breeding of a niche working line would cause such a massive issue?

Not sure if this was all addressed at me & Weims but basically, on top of the strong prey drive, the performance bred Weim has man sharpness and a very strong guarding instinct. This can translate to issues with aggression toward other dogs, animals in general, humans and, most importantly (in my opinion) their own handler. Many Weims are reported to have aggression issues (most issues are simply caused by inept owners and are not genuinely to be attributed to the dog being aggressive). Would you recommend a man sharp working line GSD to the average pet home?

I am not as familiar with GSPs as I am with Weims but many people seem to have similar issues here. They are strong, sharp breeds under pet/show conditions, but genuine working lines encourage many of these traits (especially game and predator sharpness), so often it is only matter of time until the issues I have listed above appear in pet homes, since the dogs generally do not receive enough work and owners are often unprepared/ignorant. Event those who believe they are aware often still have trouble dealing with issues when and if they arise.

I know that some people in Australia claim to breed for hunting ability, but unless the dogs are actually worked and compared to other dogs doing the same work, there can be no genuine selection for the traits necessary for active hunting duties. Of course many dogs do ok at field trials etc in spite of this, but field trials are not necessarily a representation of genuine hunting conditions.

Basically I am afraid of Weims falling under DD dog laws due to the working bred dogs' propensity to resort to aggression when under managed, under exercised or under stimulated. That does not mean I find any of these traits bad. Not at all, they are very necessary for humane hunting with the dog (as the dog has to be willing and able to quickly catch and kill injured game and pest animals, even in difficult or uncomfortable terrain). Are they negative for a pet home? Probably yes.

Working bred GSPs are not bred for man sharpness in their country of origin and should not be bred for it elsewhere. However, GSPs (especially working lines) are still prone to many of the same issues as I have listed above, as most people experienced with the breed will know (not saying you are not, but I have to wonder why you seem to be unaware of the issues presented by working bred HPR dogs in pet homes).

Weimaraner, GSPs etc already require a huge amount of management from their handlers, I am reluctant to bring in dogs whose management requirements would be even higher than what is already here and already causing trouble for a lot of owners, well informed or otherwise.

As I said, this would probably not be an issue for Cockers (unless suffering from Cocker rage haha), as Cockers are bred for a totally different style of work.

And yes, "sharpness" does not at all refer to intelligence (not sure why you would think so), it refers to potential aggression levels in various situations (i.e. facing a human, facing a fox, facing a shot animal on the move etc) and the willingness to take on that situation, regardless of discomfort (i.e. chasing an injured fox into blackberries, catching and killing the fox in thorny cover) is generally referred to as "being hard" in European countries (not sure how this would best translate into English?)

Basically, I am not at all concerned that your working line Cocker puppies will wreak havoc in their pet homes, I simply cannot see the point in importing a spent bitch and then homing the few pups you would be likely to get into pet homes, after you went to all that expense and effort to get them in the first place. You cannot accurately assess the offspring's working ability (i.e. the success of your breeding program) if they are in pet homes (i.e. not working).

You really cannot compare working Cockers and working Weis (or even GSPs), it's apples and oranges, really

I think maybe you should do a little more research into breeding working line dogs to make sure you are not disappointed by the results of this exercise. You are looking to spend a lot of money here and it would be a shame if nothing useful came of it :)

Maybe there isn't the type of work over here for a working weimeraner? not sure of the legalities of using dogs to bring down another animal (other than feral pigs) hence understand why you would not want to bring them in as ultimately they may not be of any use and there are plenty of people with very effective "bull arabs" here already if bringing game down is your thing. If you feel that you or others may not be able to manage such an animal, then it is totally understandable.

I'm not "unaware" of the "issues" of working dogs in pet homes, I just personally think that "people not being able to manage working line dogs in a pet home" is a minuscule problem compared to the fact that a far higher number of dog issues are caused by "people not being able to manage a dog in a pet home" Look round pounds, look at bite stats, what percentage of those dogs do you reckon are true working line dogs? Not working category, working bred. In that regard I reckon the few pups that might come of me breeding a couple of litters, taking and sharing the best with like minded trainers and then selling the very few remaining pups to pet homes after informing them of what the pup is capable of and is bred for poses very little negative in the greater scheme of things.

The expense was to get top class field titled dogs, the ability to breed with them is no extra cost, the cost is that they are mature, trained, proven, useful animals.So whether I bred them or not, the value for me, is what they are, not what they might produce. If it helped the breed in Australia, then I would like for them to be able to contribute to the bloodlines that are already here and widen the options, much the same as I am sure has happened with every breed whilst being established. If not, I would still own and have for my enjoyment two awesome dogs. :thumbsup: :) :) :)

In regard to selecting a pup, of all the people I know in the UK who are breeders and trainers, they don't hold an entire litter and then train them all, they select the ones that show the most promise, and then work with them, if later on that promise does not continue they then place the dog out to a rough shooting home or as a pet. Much the same as breeders on DOL who have more mature dogs that do not grow as close to confirmation as they initially thought. They don't keep them all until full fruition, they have first cull, hedge their bets and then cull again once the picture becomes clearer. Saying that, I also know of FTCH trainers that have three dogs one old and on it's way out, one that will be its understudy and then a puppy. they somehow manage to select a dog with good basic traits and then work with the dog in front of them to build the dog they want. To suggest that to have a successful working dog program would mean that you had to keep every puppy just in case would be madness, and would mean that show or working line kennels would only ever have adolescent dogs for sale, as every puppy needed to be kept.

In regard to working with water, heres a quick video of one in water. I'd be happy with that :)

How can you handle a dog that can't see you above the height of the grass? I just can't see them as being competitive in a sport dominated by Labradors and the occasional GSP.

Much the same as you would handle it once it is behind a stone wall, in a pea field, deep bracken, inside a hedge, bramble or running down a tidal gully. :) Sometimes it's not about competing and measuring yourself or your dog against others, sometimes it's about the pure pleasure of working with an animal that you appreciate. As you said, it is a sport dominated by labs, with that in mind, why do people bother with a GSP or any other breed? Keep in mind that trialling is not my (personal) dream for me and said dogs, it may happen, but it is not my ultimate aim. But given the choice of shooting over such a dog in the "rough" compared to a "competition" the later would pale for me personally.

A dog as small as a working Cocker might find some Australian trialing terrain hard going.

Outside of Retrieving Trials, how many opportunities are there to trial a Cocker here??

Any reason why a working Springer won't suit? They are already established here.

Have you ever been to a rough shoot in the UK? I've seen spanners of all types cover terrain that i wouldn't want to cover on foot, let alone running with a pheasant that is several times bigger than my head, in my mouth. :) Cockers were viewed in a similar way in the UK up until recently when people have realised that the dogs physical size is far outweighed by its work ethic. I know people that use them for waterfowling, not talking ducks, i'm talking Geese, and they still work on.

You are correct in regard to springers, and I am in touch with several working line breeders over here for springers haven't discounted them by any means, but I would still want to get my hands on a working Cocker as well. :) I suppose as well that I am not someone that tends to take the easy route (some might say stubborn :laugh: ) but the way I look at it is that any of the magnificent dogs that are in Australia were at some point in the same position as the working cocker. There are a very limited number of people here that have them and maybe by getting some, I might be able to help in that establishment? Everything starts from something small.

In regard to weims, the only working ones I have seen were HPR or peg dogs much the same as a GSP, What trait is it that you feel would be so uniquely negative about a working line weim, compared to say a working line GSP?

I hear what you are saying about ability in pups from a FTCH mating, and of course you would expect all of the pups to have working ability and drive, but I would also expect that some would stand out and make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. Obviously with such small litter sizes and the fact that, people interested in them would probably have at least a passing interest in trial-ling, shooting or at least gundogs, I would expect that anyone that WANTED a working line cocker would have at least a vague idea of what they are getting in to. :)

I just wonder how a Cocker is going to handle the kind of water retrieving trial dogs get here - most are far larger than the Cocker.

I don't recall saying anything about working Weims at all, negative or otherwisel.

Good luck with expecting people to know what they are getting into. Reality has a bad habit of rearing its head and what people perceive they can handle may not be reality.

The Weims was for Blackjaq :)

In regard to people having an idea, as you said, there are working Springer lines already here, they seem to have no greater issue with puppies going to homes than any other breed, (unless there is a disproportionate amount of working line spaniels in all the dog pounds that I don't know of? ) so I don't see why a working cocker would be so different a prospect? What exactly do you think that a working line cocker does that is going to create a greater issue than any other type of dog, working line or not, if purchased by an uninformed owner? Assuming that there would be an uninformed owner? Not sure why one would seek out WORKING line cocker in particular rather than any one of the myriad of breeds and puppies available on a much wider basis?

The biggest difference for me would be that in reality the people interested, and that would be involved are a very small group, who are all interested in having a level of diversity to be able to draw from, when you look at the DOL adverts, there are plenty of dog breeds that require "management" (in fact you could argue that all breeds require a level of management if they are to be brought up to be good canine citizens)that have permanent puppies available 365 days a year from multiple different breeders. Most of which, I would assume are limited register pups being sold on as the breeder didn't feel that they were of good enough confirmation. Sorry for being thick, but I honestly cannot see how limited breeding of a niche working line would cause such a massive issue?