Natsu chan

Why not just enter the old lady in something and see what happens? Do it for fun, do sweet bugger all training wise and see what happens. Clearly the rest from serious work has helped. The oldies love the attention and fun but not the pressure.

How's Kenzie's shoulder coming? Shoulder injuries are so frustrating.

Bedazzled, I wonder if using say a flat leather for UD and a rolled one for the UDX retrieve would help Brookie? At least that would give him another visual cue that this isn't a scent discrimination exercise. I really think having to use leather scent articles muddies the waters for the dogs.

Thanks so much everyone for helping. The ANKC isn't contactable itself so I did try Dogsvic (the VCA) but no one seemed to have a clue.

I know The OC replaced the AOC, which was a back end title not a front end one like it is now.

Tassie I'm sure it was in the 90's at some point as the dogs who had OCs when I started all had done the tracking requirement. This would have been 1988 I think. The sticking point is did they change the title from a back end title to a front end title at the same time as they dropped the tracking requiremnet.

Noeline is probably a good person to ask, now why didn't I think of that!

Thanks everyone.

ETA

Okay managed to get my hands on a pre 1989 rule book and the OC was still a back end title then and required a TDX. So I guess that means the 1990's then?

LOL! @ Rubystar. Terrible isn't it?

Does anyone have any idea about the AOC stuff I asked about on the previous page. Tried asking Dogs Vic but got no where. Can anyone suggest where I might find this information? I know it's pre 1989 as my firstriallingng rule book doesn't include the tracking requirements for the OC.

Megan weak nerves are certainly becoming an issue in the roughs I totally agree with you, but the smooths are on the whole very sound temperament wise. Smooths are a lot bolder and have far better nerve than the roughs even when you are talking about puppies from the same litter.

Collies are however sensitive and this needs to be taken into account.

Smoothies (aka Smooth Collies) do shed a bit but less than a lab and it tends to be seasonal. A good scrub over with a hound mit, a rubber curry comb or a slicker once a week would really help with that though. My rough only gets 35 minutes of grooming a week and I'm a bit neurotic about hair on the carpet. They have lovely temperaments but more full on than the roughs and they tend to be bolder too. They can be barkers though. I'm baised I think they're lovely, very gentle obliging dogs. That damned nose though is into everything, you'll never unpack a bag or wrap a present in peace again.

Can suggest a lovely breeder too.

I have collies and mine have always been trained up to open level even if they never saw a trial ring. They all had rock solid stays but being a herding breed they do like to look around and sticky beak. I reward them for not looking behind them and keeping steady. I don't teach them to focus on me because of the issues it causes with out of sight stays especially with more clingy dogs. I always vary what I do in stays I walk around and vary the time and distance in between doing more formal stays and that does help with the sticky beaking. My currently girl now sighs hugely at the 30 second mark and puts her head on the grass and waits.

Have you tried doing stays with you standing a step back behind her?

That sit stay, she looks like she is waiting. Do you use the same command for a stay as for a recall?

She's a pretty girl.

What Cowanbree said about Shelties is true for collies too. Collies aren't always barkers I've had several from one family who were very quiet, but most are very good watch dogs and will warning bark. Inside is good they tend to be quieter and an adult is easier than a puppy in your situtation too. They are lovely dogs but need grooming and training to keep them happy. They're easy to train but inquistive and they're generally very good with little dogs.

My girl is a house dog she gets two walks a day and some training and is very good. She'd be fine with the same system in a town house.

This probably isn't the right place to ask this but rather than start a new thread, I thought I'd pop in here.

I've been doing some research into dogs with sporting titles in my breed and as I go further back I am seeing A.O.C as a back end title is this the old Australian Obedience Champion title which included the tracking requirement? (I am fairly sure that it is but I wanted to check)Does anyone remember? Also can anyone remember when what year roughly the tracking requiremnets for the OC where dropped? Did this happen at the same time as the AOC becoming a front end title and changing to OC?

If anyone can help that would be wonderful!

I unfortunantly had to deal with this 18 months ago. Total cost was more like $1800 (I haven't actually added it all up I don't want to know!) for a 23kg bitch and she was taken to the vet at the first hint of trouble. So not too much I don't think.

Here you go RV:

Collars and Leads:

All dogs must have a slip or fixed collar which fits only the dog's neck and which must remain on the dog

at all times. No spiked collars or collars which give additional head control shall be permitted.

The minimum length of lead will be 750 mm and it will be fitted with a quick release fastener. All dogs

must enter and leave the Ring on a lead. In exercises that require a dog to be off-lead, the lead will be

taken off and handed to the Steward at the Start Peg.

All exercises with the exception of Heel on Lead and Stand for Examination in the Community

Companion Dog Class must be executed off-lead

Basically, any flat, martingale or check chain is fine provided it's not a prong or a halter style of collar.

ETA

I must admit I have always used a check chain, and most people I see still use a check or martingale of some sort. One point though is to make sure the lead is over the length and comfortable for you. I'm only short so mine are 90cms but most people use longer ones and if you aren't use to a longer lead it can create some entertainment for everyone else.....I speak from experience!

The dog in action is another one. It's very good and considered a classic.

http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Action-Locomotio...s/dp/1929242069

I'm a sucker for puppies full stop. What ever they are they're cute!

But I do have a soft spot of Collie puppies. I mean really, how could you not.

Collielover given what Willow is like I don't think it will matter. What will matter is that the two have compatible temperaments. I'm sure the breeder will help you pick the right puppy. We've had multiple girls together for years with no problems, but that doesn't mean there will never be any but over all Collies are fairly easy to manage in that regard.

Think about temperament first then sex that would be my suggestion.

Most people just print the form and send it off with payment. If you're near KCC though you could just go into the office and do it there. If you aren't sure just ring the office.

A bit off topic I know but does anyone know if any of the state KC are going to print and bind the new obedience rules? I tried the VCA today and they said that I would have to print it off the ANKC website. This is all well and good but it's far too bulky to stuff in a back pocket or in the trialing bag.

Yep they're safe for dogs. This company here sells them in packages for dogs with a dosage chart on the back:

http://www.animalhealthstore.com.au/dogs/f...hia-equine.html

Echo I don't know since I didn't write the rules. However obedience is a lot older than agility, and it is after all meant to be a test of how well a dog responds to it's handlers commands. Agility is a completely different thing, it's a race over obstacles (with apologies to the agility people because I know there's more to it than that!). You can't really compare the two sports that way. The same goes for the number of dogs an agility judge (and many judges judge both) does not have to worry about tiny details, in relation to handling and position, nor does a single agility round take anything like as long as a single obedience round. A UD dog can be in the ring under the judge for 15 minutes and agility round would be lucky to last more than a minute and a half.

Obedience is the only dog sport where individual commands and responses matter. Tracking, herding, agility none of these sports have anything like the same scoring system. In obedience the voice matters it is after the main cue to the dog and the dog is being asked to do a lot of fairly complex exercises in a very particular way.

The rules don't say you can't use another language only that it's at the judges discretion and most judges don't have a problem with it, but as they donate their time and effort then frankly they should have some leeway. These people give of their time so we can compete with our dogs, often they are older people as well and they will sometimes be spending 12 hours out in all weathers for little more than a cup of tea. If they're a bit hard of hearing, and find it easier if everyone speaks English then so be it. If you have a concern about it you ring the trial sec before you enter and ask.

Think about it you have 20 plus dogs to get through in x amount of time, if everyone uses 'heel' then it's easier your subconscious becomes attuned to it, you only have to listen for a repeat of the word 'heel' or if the handler uses another word (which would then be an extra command) the rest of your concentration can be focused on the quality of the actual performance. If when the handler leaves the start peg they use a word you've never heard before in a language you don't know it requires a lot more concentration to pick up an extra or changed command, and if your hearing is starting to go then that only compounds the issue.

In agility you can change the command or give any command you like.

Without judges, stewards, trial secs, and all the other helpers there would be no trials. The judges are given some leeway so as to make their often thankless job easier. The same rule applies to protective clothing for the dog and a few other things aside.

I've been trialling on and off (mostly off I must admit) for 20 years and in that time there's been all sorts of changes. People can make suggestions when the rules come up for review of course but the reality is that there is no way we could ever please everyone and we all have an exercise or two we'd love to change but rules are rules and if we want to compete then we abide by them.

Just on the hearing impaired person thing. In Victoria there is a lovely older lady who has a cochlear implant and a Lions hearing dog. She not only trials but has titled this wonderful little dog. She's not an experienced trialler either her lovely little dog is her first. Both of them enjoy themselves no end and the judges always come up with a way for her to participate. I have hearing and other health problems myself and the judges are always happy to accommodate me anyway they can.

There are people out there competing in obedience with all sorts of disabilities visible or other wise.

The rule for the use of English is there because Australia is considered to be an English speaking country (I'm fairly certain it's our official language) but mostly to make things easier on the judges who often have a lot of people to get through. Having said that I do see a lot of people who trial using German or other languages and most judges happily accommodate people.

Ah a wash and wear Springer! :D Well it was a thought anyway, but then I don't have a choice can't really not groom a rough collie!

Hmm she sounds like an energiser bunny, does she stay still to eat even?

TSD, you're girl is a springer isn't she? So I'm guessing you groom her does she stand to be groomed? All mine are taught stand as part of the grooming routine then later it gets transfered into their general behaviour. I just use my hands to maintain the position to begin with since collies tend to want to either lie down or bounce around the moment the brush comes out. Other wise though the usual rules apply small steps and lots of rewards.

SandyK we're mostly against pet shops selling animals because once you run a business you tend to put the needs of the business first. When people buy a pet it's not a 10 minute commitment it is or it should be for the life of the animal. The problem is no business will tell you the negatives about buying a particular pet only the positives they need to make a sale after all. A good ethical ANKC or Cat fancy breeder will ask questions and tell you the down side of the breed you are looking at and you need to know those things.

For instance, poodles don't shed but any dog that doesn't shed needs grooming. Lots of grooming and generally clipping as well and not once a year either usually at intervals or about 6 to 8 weeks! Working breeds are smart but the down side is they need not just exercise but training and attention and brain work or they become bored and destructive. And so on.

The other issue is that puppies in pet shops are there during a critical development period. At that time they need to be with their mother and other litter mates to learn how to interact with other dogs, to learn bite inhibition and to learn to walk on various surfaces, and a lot more besides. These are all things that can't happen in a pet shop simply because you just couldn't set a shop up to do these things and pass the work place health and safety side of things. Then there's the house breaking, being confined in small cages breaks down the natural inclination not to soil the nest which is what we use to house break dogs. Once that happens it is very difficult and sometimes almost impossible to house break a dog and for a toy breed that's really a bad thing.

People need to take responsibility for their actions a bit more but it certainly helps if you don't buy a puppy from a pet shop! At least you know what you're getting with an adult rescue dog or a puppy from a good ethical breeder.

I think part of the problem is that people no longer have any concept of why we have pedigrees and we need to show people why we use them again. When you go to a new doctor or a specialist one of the things they ask is about your family and if there's any history of medical problems. Most of the general public don't really twig that pedigree animals have their family trees used in the same way, which is how many health problems actually came to be recognised in the first place.

If it was explained in that way people might see that it's actually more than just a bit of paper.

Part of the trick is knowing who to talk to. The biggest problem with that is that most people don't have the faintest idea who to ask and just as importantly what to ask. If someone asks me I will generally send them to the breed club. Which isn't full proof of course but they will generally get guided towards someone who is reputable. I rarely come straight out and say go to this person unless someone comes to me asking specifically for a dog of my own breed for dog sports.

What I've learnt over the years is if someone is known to be a bit off in some way other people in the breed will instantly go quiet when they are asked about them. Of course there's politics where ever there are humans thats just how it is, so you have to listen a bit to what's not being said.

Household dog I'm glad you've gotten some help and have found a few leads. Most people really want to do the right thing but they don't know how to go about it. Well done for taking the time and effort to do so.

The problem with puppy farms is you can't make them illegal due to the fair trade laws, the government knows this. So instead they are bringing in laws that will really only result in more commercial farms, as only people who can to afford to pay for the requirements of the new law will be able to continue breeding. Most good breeders don't breed to make a profit and if they appear to make one it isn't a real profit when you take all the expenses into account. The councils and governments make it difficult already with the restrictions they place on numbers and adding more restrictions and further expense is only going to make it harder for most pedigree breeders who are after all only hobbyists. It is by being a hobbyist breeder that allows these breeders the luxury of being picky about where their puppies go and who they go to, they aren't having to worry about the next litter or the cost of feeding the puppies for an extra week or two. This of course pays off most of the time at the other end in that fewer of these dogs end up in the pound system.

It's a difficult issue and one that doesn't have an easy answer.