Nic.B

Interesting link . https://pethelpful.com/dogs/A-New-Study-May-Forever-Change-the-Way-We-Train-Our-Dogs there is another link to what has been released further down. I am not in any way spruiking this study, though it is an interesting study/read (for me) and something for each of us to digest no matter if a committed, responsible owner, trainer, behaviourist, vet, those of us working with dogs in any role.

Such great advice from experienced, compassionate, proactive professionals who have endless years of hands on experience, particularly with senior dogs. I personally know Powerlegs and Stelnmes care and commitment for senior dogs, truly amazing stuff, such an important role. Oldies are truly so special, always so very individual in their needs, it requires a holistic approach. We lost our darling old Kelpie Bella at 17 not that long ago. We took it a day at a time, everything we had done with Bella during her life with us (she was one amazing dog!) went out the window toward the end of her senior years :laugh: lets just say there was a lot of flexibility involved each day and god we laughed at times . It was very much a journey, I am so honoured we were able to have shared that experience with Bella . The thought of Bella being knowingly forced into a state of distress during this time is something I can not even begin to contemplate. For the OP, your little man is gorgeous enjoy this time and these experiences together. Find the humour in it all and remember we all get old. I am seriously going to be a major PIA if I get to that stage and have given the kids an idea of what they are in for :D

Thank you, Willem, for sharing your degree of agreement with me. I'm sure that is useful information to someone.

:laugh: Nice!

Honestly how to stop it?

Stop greeting the dog. Seriously. Do NOT acknowledge the dog when it rushes to grovel and pee. Ignore the dog until it is calm.

^This, even if it means 30 mins of casually doing other things while not acknowledging the dog at all. Do you food reward him upon entry at your house?

Agreed OSo, the pup in question is barely two days old, she's feeding from mum, getting a full belly and has gained weight. It's hardly at the point where Tesslc is making a "bleeding heart" decision to keep her alive and suffering for goodness sake.

Tesslc, PLEASE don't be scared off by black & white views, you have a long way to go with this litter and there are plenty of us here willing to support you as best we can no matter what happens. Do be aware that your little cleft lip girl (or actually any of them) may go downhill and you may have a difficult decision to make but there is no need to assume the worst!!

Thank God !

Perfect post for the op Simply Grand.

Hav I missed something? White is an accepted colour for staffords if that is what you mean?

Probably.

She likes following me around and has this thing about killing and culling which in these circumstances I disagree with.

I didn't know Staffords came in vanilla ! :)

Neither did I.

Start a new topic then :)

Congratulations Tessic :) Mum and puppies are gorgeous!

I would be no good as a registered breeder, whelping and raising a litter is such hard work! plus you invest so much emotionally into the litle dingbats.

I honestly look like I stuck my finger in a power point after my first whelp :laugh:

Your female sounds like a great Mum, I am so happy you have the support of your breeder and your vet.

Good on you!

Tessic I am so glad you contacted your breeder, good on you!

There are so many experienced people on DOL they can answer just about anything, otherwise they will advise off to the vet!

I was very nervous and a worry wart for my first whelp and asked far too many questions, it all went really well with advice from DOLers.

Others can give better advice though if she becomes wrestless and will not settle also take some time to gently (both hands) feel and become familiar with her belly.

Once in labour you will feel her belly tighten up and then release, it becomes more intense prior to each birth.

Hi all

A quick update - due date today but no signs so far. Her belly has dropped a lot in the last 24 hrs though so I'd say tonight or tomorrow morning. She's not off her food or noticeably nesting but I'd say that will come soon.

I'll keep you all posted.

I have had some bitches not go off their food at all. The belly dropping quite a bit is pretty good sign. I have had some also that don't nest right up until the last stage. Has she started to pant a lot and be quite restless? Keep an eye out for contractions, she could be having them, but they are not enough to start labor properly. I had that with one bitch - had complete uterine inertia and needed to have a C-sect.

Have you made the whelping box a den? If not, grap a couple of high backed chairs or put a table over it and then drape a sheet over the sides to create a den. Sometimes this will help with nesting and her feeling more secure and not so open.

Even if 63 days is today, she still could be a day or two out - depending on when she actually ovulated. Whether it was at the time of the mating, a day before or after. If nothing in two days, then I would talk to your vet.

My first rescue whelp (Border Collie) never went off her food either and she didnt nest until 24 hours before whelp.

Most Staffords don't bother to nest until the last minute. They are always too busy to get in the box and if there's people about, there's always somewhere else to be.

This is so true, places to go people to see!

Realise Hubby is not going to come to the party and don't let him supervise the dog again

This is me well at least until you are all on the same page.

Pers idea of short, simple tricks and games is a great way to bond and build confidence.

I am a control freak esspecialy with dog to dog interatctions

Allowing unknown dogs to reach that level of arousal, and excitement with a toy gives me the willies!

Once the incident has occured you are simply in damage control, it's too late.

Understanding dogs body language and what it represents is important, great recall, contolled interactions (which is difficult at dog parks) and if things are getting a bit antsy, time out to settle down and think of something else, like you!

I agree with Dancinbcs your dog is probably looking to you rather than your Husband. I would guide the pair of them through things. I am sure your Husband has learnt from the experience, so it's probably a good time to begin training :)

Wow! Each time I check back there's a whole new page of posts! Again, thanks for all the advice and support. I think we will move our boy away and if our girl appears to be fretting (may be difficult to tell as she's probably going to be very stressed anyway) we might think about bringing him back. I think its going to be a 'play-it-by-ear' situation.

How long would you suggest he be away? Until the puppies are a few weeks old? Until they're weaned? The whole time? I should note that I have fostered kittens (bottle-fed kittens) and my boy was fine with them, played with them, slept with them etc. Although I never, ever left him unattended with them, I was comfortable that he wouldn't hurt them on purpose. I know puppies are different, but just an indication that he is very gentle natured.

Are you able to seperate them 100% if you need to?

Yes - we are using one of our spare bedrooms for the 'whelping' room and although both dogs are 'inside' dogs, our boy can spend most of his time outside and sleep in our room at night. BUT I am thinking it might just be better for him to go elsewhere.

I think it is going to be much easier for all of you if your male has a holiday from what I have read.

No, rough play is not good for a female about to whelp.

IMO the owner can put her energy into much more positive and constuctive things and interactions with her female aside from playing "rough" a week from whelp.

Wow! Each time I check back there's a whole new page of posts! Again, thanks for all the advice and support. I think we will move our boy away and if our girl appears to be fretting (may be difficult to tell as she's probably going to be very stressed anyway) we might think about bringing him back. I think its going to be a 'play-it-by-ear' situation.

How long would you suggest he be away? Until the puppies are a few weeks old? Until they're weaned? The whole time? I should note that I have fostered kittens (bottle-fed kittens) and my boy was fine with them, played with them, slept with them etc. Although I never, ever left him unattended with them, I was comfortable that he wouldn't hurt them on purpose. I know puppies are different, but just an indication that he is very gentle natured.

Are you able to seperate them 100% if you need to?

Next question - how active should she be now (about a week out from whelping)? I am watching her and my boy play fight/wrestle as I type and she's the main offender! She lays down as soon as she's tired and he leaves her alone, but then she starts it again.

I haven't walked her for the last two days (since we found out) - not sure whether I should walk her tomorrow morning or leave her at home?

IMO It is not activity levels. Please think about a holiday with the MIL for your male.

Gentle, short easy walks if she is open to it and willing. Otherwise leave and supervise her.

:laugh: I was thrown into it head first and it was very difficult for me I can assure you. I looked like I stuck my finger in a powerpoint after my first whelp.

I worried too much mostly and spent lots of time asking questions, which reminds me of the OP.

doesn't everyone :laugh:

I should have said I felt like I stuck my finger in a powerpoint for about three days and then it just went on, and on and on :laugh:

Anyway, I remember that first whelp and it was a very difficult time for me from start to finish.

Little ding bats are living the life of their dreams and I get pic's of them chilling out on the beach or having puppy chino's in a cafe.

You have been a registered breeder for how long Rebane?

You don't move males away because you are set up for it AND you have great experience.

The two dogs got to each other, clearly something has fallen appart!

Unless there is some sort of weird thing going on about the OP and the circumstances I am well unaware of what is wrong with suggesting moving the male?

Nic.B you have whelped more litters then me! But yes I see your point about the two dogs got together when they shouldn't have. Whatever makes it easiest for everyone which includes the young bitch.

:laugh: I was thrown into it head first and it was very difficult for me I can assure you. I looked like I stuck my finger in a powerpoint after my first whelp.

I worried too much mostly and spent lots of time asking questions, which reminds me of the OP.

One person suggested culling and another, me, agreed with it. How is that browbeating and hammering? I agree to not abort/desex the bitch now as it is too risky to the bitch but yes I would cull (browbeating and hammering cause I said it again)

I am not the OP though I would find having opinions am not comfortable with forced down my throat very difficult.

Obviouisly you have culled litters and late aborted and you are familiar with it.

The OP has not!

Why are some so quick to say move the male dog off the premises? I, and others don't get rid of all other dogs when a bitch whelp's and mine whelps in the loungeroom

I don't get this either ..she will probably be more relaxed if she knows he's around :)

Really Pers? I have to disagree.

Despite the fact the OP does not have any experience with whelping so far?

It is one thing having the perfect 'setup' and 'experience' as a breeder (endless years of it) it is another expecting someone with no experience (who has asked for help) to have the ability, confidence and knowledge that you all do.

What I am trying to say is that IMO it is really unfair to brow beat and hammer the OP re aborting and culling, esspecially when it is something she is clearly not comfortable in even considering.

Think about moving your male to your MIL's. Your girl (despite the fact they get along well even now) will not like him being around. She will want and need to focus on her puppies with no distractions it is also much easier for you.

One person suggested culling and another, me, agreed with it. How is that browbeating and hammering? I agree to not abort/desex the bitch now as it is too risky to the bitch but yes I would cull (browbeating and hammering cause I said it again)

Why are some so quick to say move the male dog off the premises? I, and others, don't get rid of all other dogs when a bitch whelp's and mine whelps in the loungeroom

You have been a registered breeder for how long Rebane?

You don't move males away because you are set up for it AND you have great experience.

The two dogs got to each other, clearly something has fallen appart!

Unless there is some sort of weird thing going on about the OP and the circumstances I am well unaware of what is wrong with suggesting moving the male?

Thanks for everyone's advice regarding the whelping etc. I haven't been able to get hold of my breeder today but will keep trying.

Thankfully we have a couple of family members/good family friends who have indicated they would be happy to have one of the pups. If she has a small litter, we may be able to re-home all the pups to people we know well, which would be wonderful!

I have spoken to my vet and they have indicated they would be happy to de-sex the pups at about 8 weeks, prior to re-homing, which is great news!

You poor bugger it took me forever to write that post in between my children and dogs and the thread is another two pages long :laugh:

Good news re desexing bubs prior to homing :) My vet has desexed my rescue puppies at 8 weeks (very healthy, tubby, robust puppies) and mum (doing just as well as bubs) at the same time.

Every mum and litter is different, if desex is not recommended by your vet at eight weeks it simply means having the puppies with you for a bit longer (or as long as it takes) to desex/responsibly rehome.

I would not worry about potential homes just yet (you can begin a list perhaps) get your head around what you need to do right now and get organised for that.

One step at a time :)

I take it the OP means desexing the pups before they leave home, not desexing the dam.

That's how I understood it as well :)

Thanks, I can see how it could be read differently though Christina :)

I was reffering to the bubs and agree Mum needs some time for things to settle after weaning and bubs have moved into great loving homes.

I come from a rescue/welfare background and have only whelped a few litters under DOC where the females have arrived in late whelp.

I personally would not ever be able to abort a litter at this late stage unless there were major health or temp issues with the mother or major health issues identified in the unborn puppies.

Culling healthy, strong puppies delivered by a healthy, happy mother with no issues is beyond my (own) comprehension. I did see it done once when I was a child, it broke my heart, I will never forget it.

I have desexed/aborted prenancy (rescue) early stage and would do so again. It was simply my gut that told me to desex immediately, then there was the logic :laugh: entire female in season running the streets, picked up by rangers loose impounded for manditory time (7 or 14 days).

Quarentine and off to my Vet.

I was the only one in my year to refuse to disect any living creature in science 29 years ago (which was a huge deal!) I just could not even fathom the idea, it was simply not possible for me to do that.

What I am trying to say is that IMO it is really unfair to brow beat and hammer the OP re aborting and culling, esspecially when it is something she is clearly not comfortable in even considering.

I get that.

It will simply drive the OP away from great support and knowledge from very experienced DOLers.

For the OP; Please contact your breeder, accidental matings happen even for great registered breeders. I kid you not I have even had the horror of seeing two dogs tied through the fence during opening hours at an impound facility

Think about moving your male to your MIL's. Your girl (despite the fact they get along well even now) will not like him being around. She will want and need to focus on her puppies with no distractions it is also much easier for you.

Please read and take what resonates with you and leave the rest behind.

Lastly; If you need help or advice re early age desexing, homing etc there are heaps of awesome DOLers who can assist.

Just pick one and send a PM Happy to help and support!

Its done now so to be practical

Your dog will probably be fine if she is fit & healthy & well fed.

Make a safe place & nesting box for her somewhere she likes being & start getting her used to the place & box now.

Have lots of bedding, preferably without loopy fabric. I never use towels mum & babes get their claws stuck in it & some newspaper. Line the box with this under bedding as she will want to rip & tear at the bedding to make a nest when labour begins or close to it.

Feed her as much as she wants now.

Wise up & research as much about birth as you can but it doesn't always happen exactly as described by the book or internet.

Keep the male away.

Pups can come out right way up or feet first, either is normal.

Check all placentas either come out or are eaten.

If mum is actively pushing & no pup comes out after an hour phone the vet.

If you are worried about anything phone the vet.

Make sure you have the vets phone number on hand & emergency 24 hour vets too.

Have a pen & paper & clock handy & note things down, like times of birth, how long pushing etc as it can be confusing & it will help if anything goes amiss.

Get some teats, bottles & dog milk substitute in case she needs a hand with feeding.

You may need steralised scissors to help cut cords if mum doesn't do it.

Make a checklist of anything you think you may need & put it all together now.

Try & have someone with you, its scary 1st time. If they have seen pups born before all the better.

Of course things can go wrong & sometimes dogs & pups die but most of the time there are complete idiots & lots of sensible but inexperienced people out there whose dogs do survive having a litter. Some dogs also give birth alone without a person on hand & they are fine too, some stray, some pet & some breeders dogs although as a breeder I don't know how they can leave them to it.

Try & keep calm. learn what you can, be organised & hopefully all will be well & you can desex your dog after the pups have gone to new homes.

Good luck with it all. No one is infallible.

Fantastic, simple, practical advice :)

Yes

I agree contacing your girls breeder is important, I am sure they will understand. It is certainly not uncommon!

Desex before homing the puppies without question.

Others will have a better opinion on this though is it possible for your male to have a holiday with you MIL once pups arrive? or just prior? Having him around may stress your girl once she delivers. Keeping them seperate is also another thing you will need to manage during an incredibly busy time.

Kwirky one of the most valuable things you need (or will very quickly develop) is a sense of humour!

Murphy looks like an angel in your pic :laugh: It always makes me laugh as we all know how naughty puppies can be.

There is great tips and advice in this thread, I also agree relax and enjoy Murphy :)

Murphy might prefer a messy bed or 'nest' my large breed must have a messy bed, if I fix it up she gives me death rays and fixes it.