m-sass

I don't have a problem with the use of aversives provided they are used correctly so that part of your assessment is completely wrong. I don't have an issue with check chains or prong collars being used when needed but I find your approach to them and attitude that they are the be all and end all of working with more challengng dogs very disturbing. I am not going to debate the details of the sessions we had with you because as I stated earlier, it is not my intention to denigrate one behaviourist in favour of another. Your sentence that I have bolded is completely contradictory to the vast majority of what you preach on this forum.

Snook, that's exactly what you did and was the nature of your post to tell us how your experience with different methods from different trainers affected your training progress on the theme that the pack leader and aversives model didn't work, more than likely because you didn't follow the procedure that was prescribed properly??. What I advocate which I will make very clear is a "balanced" training approach meaning experience in applying all quadrants and the willingness to do so when required.

My point is, you can't train every dog "successfully" with positive reinforcement at every stage of ingrained misbehaviour that a dog may have developed. There are plenty of instances where aversive training is the best and fastest remedy for the dog and trainers who refuse to accept this IMHO is a misjustice to the dog's rehabilitation process to support a method over the best interests of the dog and owner. Perhaps ask Mark Singer how many Delta rejects he's saved from Euthansia where their methods didn't rehabilitate aggressive dogs who they declared untrainable??.

'Snook' timestamp='1352710178' post='6018634']

Given that I own a bull breed with fear aggression I'd love to hear m-sass's theory on why we made no progress in reducing his reactivity toward other dogs when following the guidance of a well-respected behavourist whose methods involve establishing yourself as pack leader and using aversive tools and methods, but in the roughly three months that we've been seeing a behaviourist who uses positive reinforcement and counter-conditioning Justice has come ahead in leaps and bounds? He now mostly stays under threshold, even when an off leash dog races up to him, and can not only walk side by side with other dogs but is relaxed and happy about it and has even been able to go as far as playing off leash with a few dogs in controlled conditions. He also now displays appropriate communication with other dogs in most situations, such as turning his head away when he's uncomfortable instead of lashing out, and you can see him taking a moment to think about what he's doing and make better choices (such as turning to me for help) instead of flying straight in to fight mode. I think we'll stick with the "namby pamby" training methods thanks very much.

We are not talking about fear aggression Snook if that's the diagnosis of your dog's behaviour?? What are you telling us that Mark Singer failed to povide the right training advice and now you have someone else??

I didn't name anyone m-sass nor am I denigrating anyone's training methods. I am merely pointing out that the "namby pamby" methods as you call them can have amazing results with both bull breeds and aggression and that aversive methods aren't necessarily the best for all dogs. According to both behaviourists I've seen the majority of dog aggression is fear based and yes, both consider Justice to be fear aggressive. We are currently being helped by Amy from Advance Behavioural Training.

ETA: I note that you didn't actually respond to my query about how you would explain our progress using positive training methods?

I don't know Snook, it's a complete mystery that a trainer with the experience and profile of Mark Singer proved in your situation of less value than a Delta trainer?? Sometimes though as people have pointed out on a few occasions, if the owner/handler isn't comfortable or confident in carrying out methods prescribed can amount to failure especially if there is a mindset against aversives when their default instincts are to mamby pamby their dogs perhaps??.

What I can tell you from my own experiences and what I have seen on numerous occasions, dogs that have been rehabilitated with aversives that positive trainers couldn't address successfully, but ideally what is best, is what best suits the particular dog.......no one methods fits all IMHO aversives or positive.

'Snook' timestamp='1352710178' post='6018634']

Given that I own a bull breed with fear aggression I'd love to hear m-sass's theory on why we made no progress in reducing his reactivity toward other dogs when following the guidance of a well-respected behavourist whose methods involve establishing yourself as pack leader and using aversive tools and methods, but in the roughly three months that we've been seeing a behaviourist who uses positive reinforcement and counter-conditioning Justice has come ahead in leaps and bounds? He now mostly stays under threshold, even when an off leash dog races up to him, and can not only walk side by side with other dogs but is relaxed and happy about it and has even been able to go as far as playing off leash with a few dogs in controlled conditions. He also now displays appropriate communication with other dogs in most situations, such as turning his head away when he's uncomfortable instead of lashing out, and you can see him taking a moment to think about what he's doing and make better choices (such as turning to me for help) instead of flying straight in to fight mode. I think we'll stick with the "namby pamby" training methods thanks very much.

We are not talking about fear aggression Snook if that's the diagnosis of your dog's behaviour?? What are you telling us that Mark Singer failed to povide the right training advice and now you have someone else??

M-sass,

Are you aware of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Your colossally inflated over-estimation of your own capabilities as a dog behaviour expert make you a text book example. Read about your affliction here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.

Unskilled at what I started training seriously in 1974 and won my first trial entered in 1977 OMG dog trained on a choker though Given that dog training isn't the rocket science many like to make out it is, in 38 years as I have experienced, you do tend to learn something about dog behaviour believe it or not :D

This post is just one of hundreds of your efforts that are so incredibly risible, the only possible conclusion is that you're labouring under the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

You get a good hard Bull breed with dog aggression who's a bit foggy in the head, massive difference between that and a working Kelpie or GSD who can get narky around other dogs........yet the mamby-pamby may work on the Keplie and GSD using their more instinctive handler focus, yet you see these mamby-pamby trainers fit a DA Bull breed into harness and make it pull harder to reach the dog they want to tear apart.......how stupid is that??, put a prong collar on the bloody thing and teach it some consequence for going after other dogs......good ol Bull breed who is hard as nails and will respect a bit of aversive work from the handler. There is no way you will fix a good hard Bull breed dog with "serious" dog aggression without aversive measures, the mamby pamby trainers are dreaming if they think they can and as purely my opinion, I stand by that 100%

What you're saying here is that your solution to the problem of dog aggression in a Bull breed is to put the dog in a prong and let him lunge at another dog so that you can "teach it some consequence"?

You seriously think that "a good ol hard as nails bull breed" in full fight drive is going to notice your silly little prong collar any more than he'd notice a harness or perhaps a politely phrased "please stop"??

38 years of dog training and that's your solution?

Just goes to show you can't fix stupid. :laugh:

It would appear that you're functionally braindead, and thus I have no further interest in interacting with you.

Ohhh, that's your problem Wobbly didn't like my Bull breed comment......perhaps you should ask the professionals who need fight drive in a working capacity why they use GSD's and Malinois and not Bull breeds......there is a reason for that :D

The rest of your post, who cares pffff.

Getting a trainer, behaviourist or whatever to help with a problem is always going to be a risk in itself. Depending on whose "fan Club" you belong to, what successes you have had with your own or close friends personal experiences etc. and how much weight you put in hearsay.

As a pet owner, I'd be safer putting my trust in someone with runs on the board dealing with dog aggression over my own interpretation of what's going on or the advice of people who've never met me or my dog.

Get it wrong and you're talking about the life of the dog and the safety of the owner. That's the magnitude of the risk.

Yeah......I have seen some "runs on the board" from "fan club" trainers and the performance of the dogs trained were absolute crap. Dog muzzled 20 meters away from other dogs is a "fixed' dog DA dog sure it's fixed, too far away from other dogs to be reactive with a muzzle on in case it gets too close and bites. Management structure for safe handling of a DA dog is fine, but thats not a "fixed" dog behaviour wise although 20 fan club members will tell you it's fixed and the trainer is awesome

M-sass,

Are you aware of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Your colossally inflated over-estimation of your own capabilities as a dog behaviour expert make you a text book example. Read about your affliction here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.

Unskilled at what I started training seriously in 1974 and won my first trial entered in 1977 OMG dog trained on a choker though Given that dog training isn't the rocket science many like to make out it is, in 38 years as I have experienced, you do tend to learn something about dog behaviour believe it or not :D

Sorry, double post

Steve and I recommend each other and don't judge each other as incompetent based on our tools of choice. Steve realises something that you seem incapable of understanding - that it's NOT THE TOOL.

So why does Steve use prongs given that my opinion of their value according to you means that I am not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an opinion?

Wouldn't the same logic apply to Steve then, otherwise if he had a handle on dog behaviour as well as you do, like you, he wouldn't recommend and use prongs either would he

M-sass, it's my opinion that you are not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an opinion. Is that fair?

In any case, not recommending a prong says nothing about my experience with correction collars. You make a lot of assumptions.

Why does Steve Courtney recommend and use prongs then Aidan.......is he not experienced or competent enough with behaviour modification, particularly positive reinforcement, extinction procedures, functional negative reinforcement, classical conditioning and classical inhibition to have an informed opinion to exclude their use from his training regimes??

Probably, I had one recently who came wearing one. Same dog went to a big doggy charity event without one just recently, and was marvellously behaved. I'm not sure if his owner is on DOL, but she might chime in if she is.

I've never claimed to be 'purely positive'. I have used aversive tools but not directly in dog aggression behaviour mod. But you missed the point anyway, I am pragmatic, I use aversives, but I do not argue that they are necessary or that anyone who doesn't use them is incompetent.

Eta: and no, I did not recommend the prong collar for that client. Another behaviourist did.

You posts reflected that your mind is closed to the likes of prongs etc and I recalled seeing a photo of the dog wearing a prong said to belong to your training group and assumed that you do use prongs when required in certain cases? There are a lot of trainers who will not have anything to do with aversive tools and methods whatsoever and they take on dogs way beyond their training capabilities which are the character of dogs easily remedied with aversive methods and they restrict people achieving good results by limiting their regimes to select methods only which may not be the most appropriate methods for the particular dog.

My point depending on the character of the dog, if a behavioural issue needs to be addressed, a trainer with a full toolbox with experience of using a 'full' complement of tools and methods is more appropriately equipped to handle a wider range of issues than a trainer who knows only one method with limited tooling??.

Nope, I've never recommended a prong.

You seem to have this idea that the dogs a person is equipped to handle is correlated with the number of tools they use. Sorry, but it's not about the tool. What is "method-pushing" (your label) if not what you've written above? Who are you to decide for dog trainers what the "most appropriate method" is?

You're entitled to your opinion, but what you've written above is a judgment of the ability of other trainers which is based on opinions, not facts.

Yes Aidan, that is my opinion that trainers who are not well knowledged on prongs from hands on experience are not informed enough to have a valid opinion to exclude them from a training regime on the basis that what they have to offer is better without direct comparison.....is that fair??.

A friend of mine heard another report she said the GSD had been returned to it's owner and doesn't appear that the GSD will be PTS over the incident??

M-Sass you are just so incredibly misinformed about Bull Breeds I don't even know where to start.

Happily enough, your opinion on the subject is so completely irrelevant I don't feel I need bother wasting my time correcting you. :D

I only address what's in front of me on the leash, the hardest dogs character wise with the most serious dog aggression I have seen personally have been Bull breeds of some description. The "most" dog aggressive dogs I have seen are little dogs that the owners can easily drag around on their retractor leads and rarely seek help for their seriously aggressive behaviour.

Probably, I had one recently who came wearing one. Same dog went to a big doggy charity event without one just recently, and was marvellously behaved. I'm not sure if his owner is on DOL, but she might chime in if she is.

I've never claimed to be 'purely positive'. I have used aversive tools but not directly in dog aggression behaviour mod. But you missed the point anyway, I am pragmatic, I use aversives, but I do not argue that they are necessary or that anyone who doesn't use them is incompetent.

Eta: and no, I did not recommend the prong collar for that client. Another behaviourist did.

You posts reflected that your mind is closed to the likes of prongs etc and I recalled seeing a photo of the dog wearing a prong said to belong to your training group and assumed that you do use prongs when required in certain cases? There are a lot of trainers who will not have anything to do with aversive tools and methods whatsoever and they take on dogs way beyond their training capabilities which are the character of dogs easily remedied with aversive methods and they restrict people achieving good results by limiting their regimes to select methods only which may not be the most appropriate methods for the particular dog.

My point depending on the character of the dog, if a behavioural issue needs to be addressed, a trainer with a full toolbox with experience of using a 'full' complement of tools and methods is more appropriately equipped to handle a wider range of issues than a trainer who knows only one method with limited tooling??.

There is no way you will fix a good hard Bull breed dog with "serious" dog aggression without aversive measures, the mamby pamby trainers are dreaming if they think they can and as purely my opinion, I stand by that 100%

Well I'm glad that at least you acknowledge that it's purely your opinion, because those of us who can and do would understandably hold a different opinion :laugh:

Given that the OP's dog is a Labrador, a breed at least as biddable and handler-focused as a GSD or Kelpie, it's good to know that even m-sass thinks the "mamby-pamby" methods have a shot.

Hmmmmm, so who is the trainer named Aidan in Tassie training a GSD with a prong collar??.........saw a photo of the dog wearing one

I would be especially hesitant using a head collar on a dog prone to lunging, the potential of neck damage etc is greater. I'm personally not a fan of the tool.

If your dog is reactive on walks I would be inclined to suggest seeing a trainer if possible.

+1

I'm a "mamby-pamby" trainer and I've never had this sort of problem. Maybe I've been lucky?

Glad the OP is going to see a behaviourist and vet.

Trainers who only work in "mamby pamby" tells me they have never learned "yank and crank" to understand the benefits in some behavioural areas with particular characters although with the evolution of tools where the prong replaced the choker and the Ecollar replaced the choker and long line makes the physical "yank and crank" redundant although the principal is the same.

I think what annoys me most about limiting training methods or more commonly anti-aversion regimes is the insistance of these people to portray the negatives of aversive training as a given in every situation, you will cause fallout, you will hurt your dog, you will destroy your dog/handler bond, your dog will redirect aggressively and bite you etc etc is all bullshit for the most part........all of this can happen in extreme circumstances but in reality and the likelihood of these terrible side effects occurring are virtually nil when any forms of aversion is trained by someone experienced in the method and used on the right dogs.

You get a good hard Bull breed with dog aggression who's a bit foggy in the head, massive difference between that and a working Kelpie or GSD who can get narky around other dogs........yet the mamby-pamby may work on the Keplie and GSD using their more instinctive handler focus, yet you see these mamby-pamby trainers fit a DA Bull breed into harness and make it pull harder to reach the dog they want to tear apart.......how stupid is that??, put a prong collar on the bloody thing and teach it some consequence for going after other dogs......good ol Bull breed who is hard as nails and will respect a bit of aversive work from the handler. There is no way you will fix a good hard Bull breed dog with "serious" dog aggression without aversive measures, the mamby pamby trainers are dreaming if they think they can and as purely my opinion, I stand by that 100%

I think the main point here is that not all dogs are the same. Not all dogs will respond to the same methods or tools in training for different behaviours, etc. And not all handlers of dogs are the same either.

Would that be a correct statement of fact?

If I've got it right above, then it would follow that each dog and handler should be assessed as to which method or tools could be most effectively employed to achieve the desired results for both dog and handler, yes?

T.

Yes, that is my belief absolutely. The problem is when a dog/handler combo is assessed by a trainer either pushing a method base as their priority regardless of the dog/handler requirements or trainers who are close minded to the use of particular methods and tools for the wrong reasons??

I'm a fan of halters; they're a great training tool.

Me too........absolutely love halters laying in a rubbish bin, I am a huge fan of that :D

If the OP's in SA give Mark Singer or Bob Yeo a call to help sort out the behaviour issue??

So no vet visit?

Wpretty brave to diagnose via the Internet. Let's hope the OP sees Kathy and doesn't just follow msass' advice and land up with a dog redirecting their aggression on the OP. (has happened to at least one person I know).

No, I gave a back pocket opinion, I said that and also recommended the OP seek professional advice and for the record, I wouldn't recommend Kathy who is another method pusher with the anti- prong and Ecollar speil, good luck with trainers who's tool box is half full to cater for a range of temperaments and characters

If a dog tends to show potential for redirected aggression, you muzzle them then it's nothing to worry about :D

Excellent news.........one of mine had a dose of it back in the mid 90's we narrowed down to marrow bones, for about a month every Sunday night he was crook and would throw up, then he was ok until the last Sunday night he spewed and heaved all night and ended up behind the lounge shaking........got the vet out of bed at 6am on an emergency and luckily he picked it straight away and gave him a shot of pethadine for the pain and put him on a drip. He was good and I never gave him another marrow bone and he never had another attack, used to buy him a nice big bone every Saturday morning, didn't click why Sunday without fail he was crook.

The term "sick as dog" was an understatement, it's the sickest I have seen a dog with stomach upset, quite scary to watch it unfold not knowing what is wrong with them??

So what exactly would you suggest doing m-sass and scootaloo? Ie. what type of corrections in this situation?

ETA - oh, and how does the OP prevent it happening again?

What I am pointing out from the great discription that the OP gave us of her dog's character and behaviour, getting bitten by this dog was coming, she's a protestor, a tough nut with an attitude if you make me do something I don't want to do, I am going to bite you eventually??. This in NOT (for the purpose of the explanation) a fear based reaction, she's a tough one who likes to flex some muscle, bit of an Alpha Bitch type and IMHO, you have to correct dogs like that and lay down some boundaries.

The dog as the OP explained, won't sit without seeing the reward.........that's common with tough nuts and then growling if she's lifted into the car......then growling and snapping to biting on the bed which is all related behaviour. The dog if she could speak is telling the owner to get stuffed basically so in that case beginning with the sit, a known command she doesn't want to do without a treat........I would give her a Bill Koehler special for that behaviour and often, it's all it takes......one good correction and a tough nut re-thinks the rules of protest and learns a bit of rank order. The bed situation is not the issue, the bed situation is the accumulation of protesting behaviour where the biting has surfaced......I would wind back the training clock and start again with the basics and the NILF system is a good start, obviously a good trainer/behaviourist is needed here to get the whole picture.

I haven't seen the dog and I am purely shooting from the back pocket here on what is written about the dog's behaviour, but that is the temperament and character of a dog that needs consequence and motivation/reward.......the question, what dogs need some aversive measures??.......the OP's dog is a perfect example of the type of character I would most definitely use corrections to conteract protest.........actually in a Lab given that so many now are so nervy, she sound's like the makings of a great dog with the right training :)

Sorry espinay2, I was just trying to get you thinking, not pick on you. I am less worried about continuous reinforcement than I am about continuous reinforcement with the same reinforcer every time. Expectation can be a pain.

There are plenty of dogs out there if trained with a prong or Ecollar are of the temperament type it would work like magic in a rehabilitation process where other methods won't come close

There you go again! How do you know?

Because I have trained with both prongs and Ecollars with dogs that have been under motivational trainers getting nowhere with behaviour rehabilitation, in fact Corvus, I have replaced harnesses and head collars with a prong on the right dogs and transformed a behaviour 10 fold in 20 minutes after the dog been under motivational training for 6 months with little improvement. Should try a prong and Ecollar Corvus seriously, then you could give us a first hand report on the fallout or something??

Layla our adored Lab almost 2 years old bit me this morning and I'm not sure what do. First ill tell you a bit about our situation, Layla was bought from a breeder as a pup of 7 weeks. She is reasonably obedient after I used clicker training to train her, these days though unless she can see the treat or the reward she won't complete the order.

Ok, what you have is a result of mamby pamby training a dog of the wrong temperament. I would absolutely swear on a stack of bibles if the dog had received a few good corrections for blatant disobendience, the dog would have never bitten you. The dog is the boss, calls the shots, runs the household and wants to do as she pleases. This type of aggression gets worse of not nipped in the bud fast, definitely time for a behaviourist preferably one with a full tool box, preferably not another mamby pamby methodoligist who fixes the problem on the bed by keeping her out of the bedroom. She needs IMHO to learn the consequence of an aggressive reaction and learn some rank order for what it's worth.

Yeah.. there are so many holes in this it's not even funny. As Aidan said, it's scaremongering and exaggeration.

Brad from K9 Services International posted a few questions on this on their facebook page, highlighting the inaccuracies and inconsistencies throughout it. He wasn't rude or insulting. All his questions were deleted rather than answered, and when I questioned them as to why they had deleted his posts rather than just answering the questions my posts were deleted and I was banned from the page. They know it's all crap and they can't defend what they've written so they just ban anyone who might highlight how ridiculous it is.

My membership with a certain 'group' was refused because I supported the good use of the PPCollar and E-Collar and I guess because I was fairly public about it.

There are plenty of dogs out there if trained with a prong or Ecollar are of the temperament type it would work like magic in a rehabilitation process where other methods won't come close, and personally, I think it's absolute stupid blindedness to be so brainwashed into supporting particular methods a and tools above all else to deprive these dogs and the owners the opportunity to use the tools and methods that will work the best for their particular circumstances

I'm not surprised, sounds like there are plenty of dogs in training out there, whether it be with reward or correction. I laugh when a certain ecollar guru brags about how reliable his dogs are, yet he always seems to have a finger hovering over the button.

Yes, I have seen a few of the Ecollar demos.........now the real result is to take the Ecollar off and repeat the demo........I think we can all imagine the result I have also seen some rather good sport dogs put out a nice routine on field then to watch the handler take 10 minutes to put the same dog into the car......dog had no general obedience and off field, handler had marginal control outside of learned behavoir of a specific routine??