Pjrt

3 minutes ago, MamaMia said:

Thanks for your information! Honestly I am a bit shocked. I thought looking for a puppy through dogzonline will guarantee the reputation of breeders and quaility of puppies. 

Take a deep breath, be somewhat relieved that you got any money back, explain to the kids that not everyone in the world is exactly honest and even mums and dads sometimes find it hard to sort out the rubbish people. And set about finding a local breeder that you can actually meet their dogs and speak to them in person. 
Also I’m not sure if you had your mind set on any particular colour, but especially in small poodles, look for excellent breeding practices and health tested parents, and the temperament of the breeding dogs, and be prepared to explore other colours to give yourself the best chance of bringing home a dog who will excel as a happy & healthy family pet 

Good luck . 
 

Personally I’d take your money & run a mile from this breeder now. Contact breeders in Vic and put yourself on a waiting list for a local puppy if you can. 
ive been a pet groomer for many yrs and also in rescue and I can tell you there is a less than ethical breeder of red/apricot toy poodles In QLD I’ve had some really poor examples of their dogs on my grooming table ( dodgy temperaments , severe ewe necks, roach backs, undershot jaws, luxating patellas, heart problems, undersized ‘tea cup’ size dogs which are actually just sickly runt puppies, etc etc) and also a rescuer I know has taken several ex breeding dogs out of there in appalling health. Also, Please please don’t take this the wrong way, I say it only as a fair warning from experience, but also as a groomer I have noticed a massive trend for red toy poodles amongst my Asian clientele, and sadly there are breeders breeding only for the red colour (To the detriment of other health & structural qualities) to meet this particular market. I wish I didn’t have to say that but it’s true and worth being aware of. 
 

 Did you by chance put a non refundable deposit of $500 on the puppy originally? That may explain why only $3000 was refunded. 
As someone else said, all of the other puppies likely already had deposits on them. 
 

I don’t think I’d trust any info you get regarding temporary fencing and take pro active action to protect the safety of your dogs. Yes it’s seriously annoying, and will possibly see you out of pocket,  but for your peace of mind I’d be looking at your own alternatives such as erecting a temp fence to your own needs, well inside your back boundary, so not only is it safe but so your dogs can’t be right at the rear boundary where the action is going on erecting the new fence, or fashion your own temporary kennel run using the layout of your home to assist, like fence off one side of the house or ‘enclose’ a verandah etc. or yes, use day boarding if you need to, see if you can get leave owing from work if you have that available etc. 

it sounds as if you’re not being asked to contribute to the cost of the new fence, so I guess that’s something.....short term pain, but a new fence at the end 

46 minutes ago, Dogsfevr said:

I would be engaging with the breeder ,they will be your biggest help long term on any issues you may face .

 

The breeder was most likely taken back to receive a call about this dog and the rehome .

 

Whilst the dog is yours the previous owner may have signed a contract .

The breeder can flag the microchip and you would need to prove ownership so in all honesty working with the breeder is your best tool .

 

If you don’t want too phone them email that you realise your call would have been a shock but moving forward xyz is loved etc etc and we would love your support and help going forward .

 

As to your question if lost lost yes the current person listed on the chip is the person they will call.

 

Some vets are refusing to treat animals whose chip details don’t match there client .

 

 

 

What exactly could the breeder flag the chip for? The dog is not stolen or missing. 
 

Adding to suggestions above, ask if you can provide a statutory declaration with the form outlining the purchase details. 
it’s really got nothing to do with the breeder now. You didn’t buy the dog from the breeder so any conditions from the original sale are now void. The fact that the previous owner didn’t abide by the conditions of sale set out by the breeder are nothing to do with you. 
Also, in the meantime make sure the dog has a collar ID tag with your name, number, address as if a member of the public were to find your dog, it’s highly likely they will go straight to the info on a clearly visible ID tag and contact you directly. Of course you still need to sort out the chip, and I think a stat dec will help you with that. 

If you and the current owner meet at the breeders and you decide to have the pup, make it on the condition the pup gets a clean vet check within 48 hrs of you taking it. As for payment, if the current owner has paid in full and they own the puppy outright , they are free to charge whatever they want to for resale. That’s got nothing to do with the breeder now. It a private sale between you and the current owner. 
It’s tricky if the breeder has not refunded and officially taken back ownership of the pup. 
you really have to decide between a private sale between yourself and the current owner, with a condition of the vet check,

or walk away completely and wait for the next opportunity. 
If there are pedigree papers that have already been processed in the current owners name, they need to sign them for change of ownership. If the pedigree paperwork hasn’t been lodged you need to speak with the breeder about having them in your name. Same with microchip paperwork. Establish what stage it’s at and who is currently stated on the chip as owner. 
if you decide not to take the pup, I assume the breeder will take back ownership of it? It would be interesting to know if that happens, whether there is any refund to the current owner, and what price the puppy is re-offered for. 
 

http://wahlspareparts.com.au/General-Repair-Agent-Details-1

I can also highly recommend Feather Edge but you’d have to post to Vic. 

I’m not much help if she was mine I’d call her Willow Fluffy Pillow. Fur real!! 

Yes as above I prefer the initial focus to be mostly on behavioural training rather than obedience training. 
yrs ago at obedience clubs when I took the lower classes, which back then focused on obedience, at the end of the class id ask “any  questions?” And all the hands would fly up. All the questions were owners despairing ‘how do I stop Toto jumping up, scratching the door, barking at the fence, settling in the house not following me everywhere’ .....etc etc No one actually cared if their dog sat a bit crooked or didn’t quite walk to perfect heel.

true socialisation is about controlling impulses under distractions, not “being everyone’s friend”

find a space that trains for good behaviour & manners over drill style obedience. You can always do that later. 
 

Personally I would pass on a dog you can’t meet and see around children before you bring it into your home with your children. Wait and find a dog you can at least meet in person before handing over any money 

Ffs I just realised you’ve posted about this issue a few months back. You really need to understand the implications if your dog escalated to a bite. Even if you dog doesn’t actually make contact, just feeling harassed And threatened by a dog, is cause enough for a member of the public to launch a legitimate complaint, with significant consequences.
You have a German ShepHERD Dog (it’s not Shepard) It has strong instincts which I’m pretty certain have a lot to do with the behaviours your dog is displaying. It’s not “leash aggression” (your dog is not aggressive towards leashes) it “LEASHED FRUSTRATION” manifesting as leashED aggression  

Your last statement about a trainer not being something you could afford. Ask yourself the cost to yourself & your dog if the behaviour escalated to an actual bite or even intimidation of another person, demonstrating a lack of ‘effective control’ which is also an offence which can land you in a world of pain. 
besides the possible leash(ed) aggression (frustration) please consider that your dog is a herding breed with strong herding instincts. When herding instinct is restrained/constrained (by being leashed, for example) your dog will express frustration to that situation, which will manifest other frustration behaviour. It sounds to me like your dog is not ‘aggressive’ but extremely frustrated. 
a behavioural trainer is the way to go and if you can find one with a special interest in herding breeds and behaviours, all the better. 
Even if you find yourself at the end of your tether, at least have an expert behavioural assessment to be sure about your dogs true drives and nature to work out the best rehoming options. 
 

also try to find out if there is a German Shepherd Dog Club in your state, or a Herding Dog Club & seek advice from your breeder  also

Yes I was also wondering if the colour is blue or fawn? 
 

https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t17716-colour-dilution-alopecia

47 minutes ago, Kirislin said:

It is unfashionable to buy from a breeder! People are made to feel guilty if they don’t rescue a dog they know nothing about that was quite likely bred by a puppy farmer.

if someone gets a dog from a pound or shelter the first thing they tell you about it when you meet them is “he’s a rescue!” As if that defines the dog and you have to be told of their good deed.   For the rest of the dogs life, even if it gets to 20, it will always be first and foremost “A RESCUE”. And those of us who have a love for a particular breed are the selfish bad guys.

Yes. This is all too true! 
I have actually even heard people say they ‘rescued a puppy‘ when they actually Purchased a well bred pup from an ANKC breeder! 
yes, to some folks, EVERY breeder is a horrid human !

17 minutes ago, moosmum said:

For the 1st time in 50 years I find myself dogless.  

Oh, I have Goose. His purpose is different though to what I need. He is much too small and hasn't got the traits I need for 'the big jobs'. 

Live stock protection, home and hiking companion, childrens playmate/guardian, and personal assistant!

Hard enough to find such dogs in normal times, especially when they must be capable of 'responsible' personal protection as well. 

By that I mean safe even in a crowded party. Will act. Confidently. But in clear language, with least force and wait for instruction.

Almost a therapy dog.  I  don't  stress over what I might miss while my  focus is on other things, or I sleep. Active athleticism and health are  essential for my purpose.

 

Its what I grew up with. Its possible.

 

Its what comes of centuries of people breeding for their own purposes and situations. For their own needs, in their own back yards.

 

But we have got ourselves side tracked on to this idea of a design for dogs as shortcut to function. Almost like people think " If form follows function, then we perfect the form we believe works best, ability to perform must follow. But it can't. Its an evolutionary rule that form follows function.  Only now the function is to conform to a design. And any purpose is subject to that. The so called "designer dogs" are a direct result of that influence.

 

If a breeders purpose is to uphold a standard, thats as good a purpose as any while there is a place for it.

BUT.  If every person who breeds dogs is expected to incorporate that same purpose,  Before they are recognised as legitimate, then purpose is lost altogether.

Because Conditions come before response. The environment of dog breeders retracts to those design conditions.

 

Not what I need in my backyard.

I grew up with a dog that lived my ideal. It took me 15 years to find it again, because I didn't appreciate how rare it was becoming.  This response-ability to environment that gave us breeds -recognisable to the purpose  served in their specific environments.  It took another 7 years of more focused search to find others that met MY standards.

 

If pedigree dogs can meet them, I'd love to know where. 

If they can't, and I find what I need else where, No one has the right to even imply Its some how less than responsible to try and make that available to my children and grand children who have also grown up with these high expectations.

 

Its not irresponsible to understand your own needs and the traits/qualities  needed to achieve them.

Its irresponsible to insist that your purpose/standards in breeding dogs must be universal.

Its irresponsible to say the conditions that gave you a pedigree dog over- ride the conditions that give me, what works for me.

Because with out the experience, I would not have these expectations of a dog or an understanding of what makes it work.

The expectations of your environment are not the ones I live with.

 

So it is irresponsible to discredit my experience or my dogs and irresponsible to limit experience.

It would be more responsible to ensure people understand their own purpose in getting a dog,  Whats required and how to make it work as best you can.

 

It creates experience that is more valued, and that creates higher expectations.  Possibilities and direction come from expectation.. Where you can go, 

 

The 'form' of breeders also follows function. Purpose.

 

Breed Standards can work, very well. They are environmental conditions, set up to benefit breeders whos purpose is to a continuous  design. They can't be THE purpose for dogs, and still have a dog that evolves as part of a whole human community. Its no longer a 'domestic dog'. 

Its environmental demands lie in another, separate direction. A fixed condition! Direction can only be into "itself".

 

Pedigrees can only work if they are seen ' a purpose' in a range of purpose. Not the only legitimate direction a breeder can take for validation.

Value is for the environment to judge and decide, not for the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could not have said it better. Thank you ! 

I’m really enjoying this discussion.. thanks everyone. It’s really good to hear from all sorts of people with different perspectives & experiences. 

3 hours ago, Papillon Kisses said:

https://thecognitivecanine.com/blog/functional-dog-breeding-with-jessica-hekman/ 

This is a fabulous listen IMO. It aligns pretty much with where my thoughts are at in regards to breeding of dogs. 

The gardener certainly had an influence no doubt. But for some reason the pedigree breeders thought barely breeding dogs was the best way to combat it?? I really understand the point about breeders not wanting to have their dogs fall into the hands of people breeding  mixed breeds. But you know, I think worse things could happen. That very big winning kennel I started at way back in the 80’s had a very wise man at the helm. They bred. A lot. They showed. They won, a lot.  And I’ll never forget him saying to me that he’d rather see people cross breeding with his pet sold pedigree pups than trying to breed non pedigree purebreds with them. Obviously he’d rather not have seen people indiscriminately breeding from any of the pups he sold, but faced with a choice, he’d choose to see the cross breeding rather than his lines popping up in non pedigree purebreds. It took me a while to find the same peace with that statement as he had, but I did. Because what harm does it actually do to the pedigree breeder. They can continue to have amazing dogs, breed amazing puppies the majority of which will go to great pet homes and not be bred from, win at shows. NOTHING about a pedigree breeders dogs change if one of their puppies happens to land in the hands of indiscriminate breeders. Yes, it may or may not be an excellent life for the puppy who ends up being indiscriminately bred. I understand how that’s hard to accept. 
If pedigree breeders bred more pups for the pet market, inevitably some would land in the hands of less than exemplary breeders, but in doing so, there would also be many more pedigree dogs out there in homes and in the community, winning hearts and perpetuating them as desirable. Breeding barely enough to meet the wants & needs within the breed fraternity is never going to help the breed flourish in the community. 
the oodly whatsits have taken the front foot and now that there are so many in the community, it’s all people see, so naturally, that’s what the majority think they want. Add that they are usually much more available too! 
maybe there is mis education and elitist thinking, but it’s not exclusive to the non pedigree market.

eating slugs and snails is not completely without risk. I don’t post the link to scare you, but it’s worth knowing about. 

http://arhvets.com.au/brisbane/garden-snails-and-slugs-pose-life-threatening-risk-to-dogs-and-humans

35 minutes ago, Rebanne said:

People don't want Poodles, they want oodles. They want the mutts they have been brain washed into believing are way superior than any well bred pure bred. 

 

 

I really feel much of this thinking started from the lack of available purebreeds though.  
a decade or so back when pedigree breeders started slamming the door on puppy buyers, they created an ever increasing gap in the supply & demand. Where else where the puppy buying pet people going to go.  Slowly at first, but now far accelerating past the pedigree dogs, the ‘designer’ market has taken the opportunity presented by the gap in the market. 
I guess it’s all too late now but if the pedigree breeders pushed through, maintained even increased puppies available and stepped out and became better visible into the puppy market, we may just be in a very different place. People liked poodles and Maltese. But they just weren’t available in any sort of numbers. People started making their own the best they could with what was available. Now that has become entrenched. 
while pedigree breeders keep acting like it’s all too hard and alienating people for the choices they have been largely forced to make, nothing will change. Actually, no, things will keep changing in favour of the now more available oodly whatsits 

2 hours ago, Rebanne said:

You answered your own question. If I was a breeder of poodles etc, the breeds used to make those crossbred mutts, I'd be desexing young and breeding less. No reputable breeder wants any dog of theirs to become a puppy farm. And have you ever heard any of those mutt owners talking about their dogs? No way they want an actual poodle. Oh no they want the mutt. No pure breed for them except for the mutt they have been told is better and stupidly believe is purebred anyway. 

I get that aspect. But how is breeding less poodles, Maltese etc, and making them less available to the pet buying market, going to ever turn that situation around? It just justifies in the public’s mind that pedigree breeders are elitist and not part of the average pet puppy supply. 
I see it’s a bind. But I really feel the risks need to be weighed up against the benefits of supplying more pet owners with pedigree puppies. 
the balance has well and truly tipped over to the mixed breed market. And will continue on that trajectory while pedigree puppies remain low in numbers and less available than the mixed breeds. 
 

Eta.... as a groomer since 1986, I’m very aware of the dog owning demographics. I still can’t help but wonder if, as an example, Pedigree Maltese & poodles were available in higher numbers & readily available, they may have maintained a better standing with the pet buying public and be talked about in the same way as people do about their oodly doodlies & maltiwhatsits

59 minutes ago, Rebanne said:

Not all breeds are popular. No use breeding pups when there are no homes for them.

Absolutely. But many wildly popular breeds are massively under represented in the pedigree stats. Breeds like Poodle, Maltese. Just a few hundred annually. It does beg the question why, when every second designer dog is a mix of these popular breeds. Surely this is somewhat the result of a supply & demand issue. 

Puppies registered 

2010-2019  

2000-2009

1986- 1999

From ANKC site

http://ankc.org.au/media/9430/comment-on-2019-national-registrations.pdf

http://ankc.org.au/media/6598/a-forensic-view-of-puppy-breeding-in-australiav4.pdf