Pjrt

@moosmum……..“To measure equality by its diversity can only diminish diversity, because equality cancels it out” I think I might be quoting you. I love this. It’s really not hard to grasp, yet somehow ……..

Also , look at the reasons why we have what can be perceived as less than desirable commercial dog breeding facilities. A couple of decades ago there was a strange shift in attitudes regarding dog breeding. When the first few of the really horrible cases of puppy farm busts hit the media, there was naturally an outcry, and the cogs began turning in the “war against puppy farms” . In the race to legislate them out of existence, all that happened was pedigree breeders sort of shot themselves in the foot, where it became positively taboo to actually breed dogs! Breeders eyed suspiciously breeders who appeared to breed volume as well as, or in favour of, showing and ‘hobby’ breeding. The phrase “oh I only breed when I want something for myself” became the cry of the respectable pedigree breeder. At around the same time, breeders of all colours where marginalised to city fringes & rural areas, further from their market and further from scrutiny by the masses. Add to this the law makers busily deciding what constitutes a puppy farm and how & where dog breeding facilities should be run, basically making it legal to run large scale commercial dog breeding facilities. For whatever reason, pedigree breeders thought they’d be exempt or able to side step these laws, but in fact, to law makers, dogs are dogs, no matter their parentage, where they come from or who breeds them. The owners of commercial breeding facilities can quite legally say that they are registered breeders, licensed breeders, breed papered dogs etc, because it’s true. It’s just a different version of all of those things than what the ANKC system offers. Morally & ethically, we all know that large scale facilities with 100’s of breeding dogs is never best practice for dogs, but it can all be legal these days Theres a whole new generation of puppy buyers coming through now who are going to find it ever increasingly difficult to decipher what class of registered licensed breeder they are dealing with. These people have grown up online. When I go online around pet sites, all the advertising that pops up is from ‘designer dog’ breeders. Never once have I seen an ad from an ANKC breeder! Ever!! If ANKC breeders want to claw this back, they have to breed dogs, in volume, and not see it as some sort of offensive thing to have a few dogs & breeding for the pet market. The current supply & demand has to be met somewhere, and while fewer and fewer pedigree dogs are being bred, it’s not rocket science that the market turns to where there is supply. Easy to access, in their faces, supply.

People breeding ‘pure breed’ dogs largely don’t seem to be able to grapple with the concept that ‘protecting’ is denying them exactly what they seem so keen on protecting !

Try convincing the farmer with a ‘short coat border collie’ who works hard daily and saves him the wages of several men, that his dog is less worthy than the show winning pedigree border collie, and vice versa...... All dogs have value in the big picture. Before the introduction of conFORMation dog shows, domestic dogs were bred almost exclusively for purpose. And more often than not, practiced their purpose. The look of the dog was secondary to what the dog could do, and even when ‘looks’ were taken into account, preferences were usually based on the terrain the dog was expected to work in and how. As Conformation dog shows rose in popularity, that drove down diversity by its very nature. the concept of uniformity and purity has been a disaster for domestic dogs. Anyone who thinks dividing and limiting gene pools towards a dead end is a great idea has their heads in a strange place. the very nature of the ‘working v show lines’ is so divisive and does dogs no good. Within breeds, I doubt breeding exclusively towards either goal is a great thing. It seems all the pedigree conformation system has done for dogs is divide, limit, reduce.... In days gone by, I doubt Fred would have cared if Dave’s Labrador had white feet. Dave probably would have watched Fred’s dog and if Fred’s dog had some ability that Dave thought could enhance his own dogs, blokes would have got the dogs together to see what the results were. Maybe they gained some desirable traits, maybe they didn’t. Because they were using the dogs for a purpose they could nut that out pretty quickly and decide their next move. Meanwhile, Mark from a few districts over might have heard about those pups, that were a bit short on leg and a bit too flashy in their marking for the purpose that Fred and Dave needed, but reckoned they might be just the ticket for his slightly different terrain. Once working his new pups, Mark worked out they were lacking in the scenting department for his needs, but decided to take a chance crossing one out to his best little spaniel, and managed to gain the best working dogs he ever had! ( for his purposes) The idea of conformity & purity in dogs is the biggest disease we have bestowed on ‘mans best friend’ and no amount of health testing can undo what driving toward that end has done, whilst ever we still drive in that direction. I use the example of our ‘ beloved’ Australian breeds to demonstrate this. EVERY single Australian breed could only have existed in its current form since, well, since Australia began! And in all of those breeds I can think of, none of them ran off a ship in the form we know them today. They’ve all become what we know them to be today, since Australia was settled. Most recently, the Tenterfield Terrier, our newest ‘breed’ . I feel a little bit ragey when I see discussions about so called designer dogs. Pedigree show people get their knickers all mixed up decrying these dogs. But, in reality, I see new breeds and types emerging. Contemporary dogs bred for contemporary purpose. Just like the old days when the breeds we know and hold close today, we’re being developed, these contemporary ‘breeds’ don’t just hatch out of an egg. They take generations to emerge. We just happen to be the generations witnessing this transition, as I’m sure, in fact hope, that generations to come, will be able to witness the emergence of new dogs to suit their time and purpose. Because things change, and that is ok!!

Typh short for Typhoon seeing as you’ve used the other storm words before Dollop Fly

So cute! For reasons unknown, the very first thing that popped into my head is Bugle

Reading between the lines I get a sense that starting your search in reverse might be a better option. Perhaps by finding the sort of dog/owner you’re looking for first, and tracking back to a breeder……..so possibly look up ‘sports dog club Victoria’ or ‘Melbourne sports dog club’ etc ,join a few local sport dog FB pages. Obviously a bit hard right now with lockdowns to do anything in person, but an ideal time to get online, find the sort or people who own the sort of dog you’re looking for, and talk to them about their breeder/buying experiences. Once you’ve found your crowd, reach out to breeders, be prepared to pay for what you want when you find it.

Oh man if they’d send him to SA I’d be sorely tempted to be a dog owner again! He’s just the kind of doggo that could tempt me back !!

I managed to reply in the wrong thread too!!

Having experience living with Mannies, that would be a hard no!!! Very crazy high prey drive!! Seriously craziest beasties I’ve ever lived with!!

The councils out here, and believe me we’re not exactly ‘remote’, choose death by shooting because our town of 3000+ doesn’t have a vet, the nearest vets are 30-40 mins in either direction for euthanasia options, they could drop them at the AWL a or RSPCA shelters (Adelaide only has one of each) but one is over 3hrs return travel, the other over 4hrs. Without private rescue options many of the dogs out here don’t stand much of a chance. To the credit of local rangers they do try to get dogs into homes directly from council impoundment, but a lot fall through the cracks for various reasons. Councils don’t ask to be the dumping ground for unwanted animals and often have limits to what they can practically do with them.

Asal you’re not telling me anything. I used to run a rescue service with a contract to take, assess, vet & rehome unclaimed strays from 3 rural councils, who after their 72 hrs in the pound would be shot if we didn’t take them. I was the one who had to decide the fate of these dogs, and it was very hard saying no sometimes, knowing exactly what would happen to them next. Some I knew were not rehome prospects but I’d take them in and hold them for their last breath at the vet when we took the others in for their vet work. Just to save them from dying tied up to the back of the council pound to take a bullet. I do understand your view of my strong words. I guess what I’m trying to say is people get very emotional over stories like in the OP but I’d like to see more outrage & emotion spent on working with people to make better choices, be assisted to keep their pets, and frankly not ‘normalise’ the idea that there’s always the pound if things go wrong. both sides of the equation need a lot of work

While I do think more can probably be done to assist homeless domestic pets………. it’s never the animals fault for ending up in the vulnerable position they do. It’s astonishing the amount of anger that can be mobilised when a story like this hits the headlines. It’s always directed at the council, the individual who carried out the euthanasia, or the rescue groups ……everyone decrying ‘someone should have done more’ It’s all arse end around though, isn’t it. Where is the outrage and pure vitriol for the OWNERS of these animals. Neither the services tasked with cleaning up the mess, nor the animals themselves, created the mess.

@The Harlster

It’s great that you are doing your level best to investigate Harleys issues. CM & SM are conditions of degree. You will see videos of dogs screaming writhing hallucinating etc. that it’s the extreme end of symptoms. Many affected dogs display very mild symptoms (some even none, being a problem in breeding programs). I’d be a tiny bit wary of writing off a structurally induced condition while the dog is still growing. has he actually had an MRI scan? I hope you can find some answers.

Maybe your dog has a health condition such as chiari-like malformation, Syringomyelia or such, that is the root cause of the apparent ‘behavioural, issues. any dog can have these conditions, but there are a few breeds such as Cavalier King Charles Spaniel that are much more prone than other breeds. I would have no issues euthanising a dog who is tortured by it’s mind. But especially with such a young dog, and particularly if it happens to be a CKCS a or mix of, I’d want to properly investigate CM a& SM. These conditions can only be properly diagnosed with an MRI scan and the results need to have a specialist read them. If it happened to be diagnosed, I’d still choose euthanasia, but I’d have peace of mind with my decision. people might think it’s a bit of a long shot suggestion, but personally, I’d raise it with a vet A bit of information

I echo the posts above. Your girl may have pyometra. There are many things that may be making your girl behave the way she is, but Pyometra would be a real real possibility and if it is pyometra, you have NO time to lose in getting to the vet. pyometra is an acute life threatening infection of the uterus and left untreated, or left too long, kills many dogs. Even if it turns out not to be pyometra, the vet bill for a check up will be well worth the peace of mind.

If the pups are more than a few days old now, I’d just tell the new owners to get them sorted out at desexing, or other anaesthetic. As a groomer who sees many un attached rear dew claws, I’ve never spoken to an owner who’s dog had problems with them. I have however known many groomers who’ve run a seven blade down an over grown leg/ hock only to discover them after the fact, having run the blade into them and part way or wholly severed them. They’re a bit of a curse for groomers!

Take a look at DerMagic Australia

We like hiking in Mt Crawford forest. It’s on lead only. We just make up our own trails but usually head into the areas off Warren Rd and Cricks Mill Rd and Starkey Rd

Would a shared arrangement suit them? Offer themselves as a ‘doggy day care’ for one specific dog/family. They get the dog many days while owners have work commitments and at other times for o/night and holiday care, type of arrangement. they’d probably have no trouble finding someone agreeable to such a situation

Thanks Moosmum. I wanted to reply to the bait but couldn’t get my emotions out of the way thank you for your excellent response as always

If it’s important to you that you can mains register offspring and potentially enter the dog and it’s offspring into ANKC conformation shows, then that’s where the value lies. If those things are not important to you, then why waste $1000 bucks. Many people still strongly believe that the ONLY way to produce sound healthy dogs is to limit breeding exclusively to health tested blue papered conformation champions! I might have used to largely subscribe to that thinking myself. Until I opened my eyes and took a good hard look at what that has left us with Lets just say I’m glad that people are still breeding mongrels, off paper pedigrees, out crosses etc. The long term survival of domestic dogs actually depends on it!!

I’ve probably groomed a dozen or more Lagotto and I can’t say I’ve ever met one that I found endearing or the sort of dog I’d think ‘gee I’d love one like this’. Bitey, fighty, flighty, a little too quick to their own defence, intolerant, emotional response quite disproportionate etc etc. Ill add that I’ve also groomed many many medium size poodle mix ‘mini Labradoodle’ type dogs who are often visually indistinguishable from a clipped Lagotto at a good hard glance, on size, colour & coat type, and I can’t say I’ve ever handled one of them that wasn’t a completely delightful happy go lucky ‘silly happy’ sort of a dog. I call them ‘faux Lagotto’ If I had to choose between, personally I’d choose to take my chance on the poodle mixes over a Lagotto

In SA we basically have mandatory desexing now. I believe if you still own an entire dog bitch post 6 months you have to register as a breeder with DACO. I think you can get exemptions from vets stating it’s detrimental to the health of the dog to desex by 6 months but many people are just too lazy to be bothered jumping through hoops and paying higher registration and breeder fees.