BullBreedBoy

17 hours ago, Maddy said:

 

It makes a lot of sense, really. You have to have faith in his product, because otherwise, it will appear not to work.

LOL.  I love this superbly concise explanation of snake oil.  

6 hours ago, asal said:

well its not who should be the arbritrator, who IS AND HAS BEEN are the judges who put up the new u beaut "improved" version and the sheeple follow the lead. until its morphed so much people can post look what this breed looked like in 1950? then 1960, then 1970, 80 , 90 and 2010. may as well be two different breeds by then. I dont see that as improving I see it as morphing to a new shape and breed. so many examples to choose from, although in the case of the King Charles Spaniel, there are now two versions, the morphed end result of the original and the recreated version of what it used to be in the time of King Charles, now known as the Cavalier King Charles.  wonder if others will end up with two versions?  the original German Shepherd v the "modern bananna" springs to mind, but so many other too

Agree 100%.  The lines between clear breed improvement (IE- breeding out health defects) and changing trends for shows seem very blurred to me, more so with particular breeds.  I have seen breeders argue black and blue regarding breed standards and breed preservation vs what's required to win shows.

I also like the term 'preservation breeder' but at the end of the day what's really important is the rearing of happy, healthy dogs.  The practice of breeding in particular traits or colours that  present as a risk to either health or happiness (EG Blue Staffies) is something we should all find concerning.

2 hours ago, Stitch said:

So I tried her on the VAN roll a little in the morning and again at approx. 5pm.  Even though she went outside to toilet after her dinner she still pooped inside before bed and again this morning.  She obviously couldn't hold on.   I am shaking my head here to understand what is causing this problem.  By rights feeding the VAN should not have caused the gut to be so irritated.   I am going to feed her some cooked mince and rice until it hopefully settles down again.  I am having to micromanage this without any idea of what the underlying cause is.

It’s going to be very difficult to establish an underlying cause whilst you switch and change so much in the diet.

I suggest you make a decision and hold some consistency for at least a couple of weeks and then see is if the situation stabilises.  Noting the concerns around gastric acidity I would be looking at the Prime 100 cooked single protein diet rolls for a while.  Once you have stabilised the situation you can start considering alternatives and even variety.

At the moment, she has digestive upset of some description, and switching around between raw, cooked dry, and cooked wet of all different brands, and different protein sources and omega sources definitely makes it hard.  Make a decision and stick with it for a while!

On 04/03/2018 at 10:51 AM, Stitch said:

I have used Leading Raw BARF for many years now.  All my other dogs love it....except this one!

I used to make my own using VAN but found the Leading Raw better all round.

I haven't tried Prime.  Is it better?

I wouldn’t say that Prime BARF is better quality than leading raw, but it is single protein.  I would be looking at going down this path as an elimination diet to see if it’s a particular protein source that upsets his tummy.

One of the Stafford breeders here in Perth feeds all dogs and puppies exclusively on the Prime 100 SPD cooked rolls and all his dogs are in excellent health and condition.

9 hours ago, Little Gifts said:

 

 

It's all about money. None of these people are improving their respective breeds.

Just out of interest, who in your estimation should be the arbitrator of that which improves a breed?

Agree with above post.  I see a lot of troubled bully’s come through our rescue that have moderate to severe socialisation issues.  The question of whether these issues can be trained out is impossible to answer, with every case being different.

If you are looking for a mature Bull Terrier to join your family then speaking with breeders is a good idea.  We occasionally forever home juvenile and adult dogs that have either a particular trait that we aren’t comfortable bringing into the breeding program or have been returned to us for various reasons.

I find Bully beeeders are generally quite well connected and will be able to point you in the right direction.  Another way of getting connected is to contact your most local Bull Terrier Club.

I recommend using 4% of his body weight per day separated across 2 meals, supplemented by appropriate size raw meaty bones 2 times a week.  From there you need to learn how to judge his condition, he should be lean and muscular and you can control this by moderating the daily %.  You need to be weighing him at least once a week,  so you have a handle the total weight to be feeding.  Remember, overfeeding is a bigger risk to his development than underfeeding.  Slow and steady development wins the race!

 It's absolutely true that you need to understand what you are doing to feed a larger breed raw or other homemade.  From the sound of your post and looking at the photo it would be advisable to stick with a commercial large breed kibble till he finishes growing.  I personally recommend Stay Loyal when it comes to kibble.

Also, as others have said, 5 kms a day is way too much for a growing puppy! The 5 mins per month no more than twice a day rule suggested above is a good rule of thumb and you can gradually build up his walks to 5kms. 

5 hours ago, juice said:

Thankyou for that, i did email him about the issue and got no response.

Do you think her PH will have leveled now she is off meds or is there something i should be doing to level it?

 

It's impossible to say from here, but my  thoughts would be no, it will not be down to an appropriate level (ph: 2) whilst you are feeding predominantly kibble.   FWIW I would advise the following:

1)  Go to two meals a day if you are not there already.   If you need guidance on qty then I would start with 1% of body weight for each meal and go from there based off condition.

2)  Use the remaining kibble for one of the meals and then stop feeding kibble completely.

3)  Purchase some commercially available BARF patties and once the kibble is used up split between two meals and feed nothing else for a month.  The BARF I recommend is Leading Raw if you can source it.  This is made in Australia by Big Dog, and several of our families feed this exclusively with outstanding results.  I myself always have some in the freezer for use when I am running low on my usual home made raw mixture, or just to add some variety.  The reason I recommend this is so that you have a good stable, raw food source that you know is balanced and providing all her nutritional needs.

4) After the month is up, start to swing her back to one meal a day by gradually reducing the volume of food fed in the morning and increasing the volume in the evening.  Do this over a couple of weeks.  By now you could be confident that she is used to eating one meal a day (which I believe is the best model for overall health and vitality), and that her gastric acidity is back to wear it should be.  At this stage you can move back to VANS or any other balanced raw feeding product of your choice.

5)  Commence adding some small bones into the mix.  I would start with whole chicken wings or drumsticks  once a week under supervision and then build up.  My dogs LOVE lamb shanks, but I mix it up and they have roo tails, beef neck, beef ribs, rabbit hindquarter and others.  What I do is feed them 2-3 raw meaty bones per week and on at least one day a week that is all they have.  Again the most likely cause of your girl vomiting up bone matter is gastric acidity and you are very likely to find once you get her gut PH down she will stop vomiting bone matter back up.  What's really important with bones is choosing the right size of bone for your dog, and staying away from very hard load bearing bones from large animals.

Please note all of this advice assumes that there is not another underlying condition which I assume you have already eliminated through your vet.  Unfortunately, the idea that some (otherwise healthy) dogs just can't handle bones is spread around by folks that average dog owners view as experts such as vets and breeders.  I believe raw meaty bones form an essential part of the overall diet of dogs and should always be fed unless there is true health reason not to.   The myth that chewing up kibble is a suitable alternative for dental health is often also spread around and it simply couldn't be further from the truth.

I do hope that all makes sense and is helpful, have done my best to spell it out for you, however if you want to discuss further then let me know.  This is the advice I would give to one of my families if in the same situation.   Bully's are amazing companions to have in your life and once you get their diet right the difference it makes to their overall vitality and enjoyment of life never ceases to amaze.

PS:  One final tip if you can do it, is take her for a good walk/run or similar exercise in the hour before you feed her.   

PPS:  Here is a link to a Webinar that Bruce Symes did a few years ago where he covered off in some detail the mechanics of feeding raw bones, and the importance of gastric acidity.  Understand he didn't reply to your email but he is truly an authority on this subject in my view.  The quality is a bit sketchy but if you overlook that there's a heap of fantastic info and myth busting in it.

Hello Juice,

Reading through the thread it sounds like you may have an issue with her gastric acidity.  I would not conclude that your girl ‘just does better on kibble’.  Assuming she does not have any underlying genetic issues or obstructions I think the combination of changing between cooked and raw foods coupled with all the medications that she has been given has probably led to her stomach ph increasing.

The importance of gastric acidity to effective digestion of raw meat, bone matter, and vegetable matter seems to be overlooked by many advocates of raw diets.

I have owned and bred Bull Terriers for 20+ years and have been feeding exclusively raw for 10 of those.  There’s no doubt that Bully’s do better, much better,  on raw.  You just need to get their  gastric acidity right, and then they will easily digest bones with minimal risk.  I believe (based off the info you have posted) that you could potentially get back to feeding a fully raw diet including bones.

Bruce Symes covers this subject area well in the below blog:

https://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/digesting-bones-gastric-acidity-salmonella-dogs-cats/

Please feel free to PM me if you want any further info.

i think one of the biggest issues facing domestic dogs is the loss of being able to look at ANY dog with a critical eye and recognise its virtues and its faults. No matter it's type, it's breeding, who bred it and where.

While pedigree and puirty and breeds are the primary focus, much is lost from the domestic dog in general.

Perhaps the loss of purpose is the biggest game changer in the last 100 -150 yrs. Most of today's recognised breeds were blended from dogs chosen as fit for whatever purpose, and refined and stabilised into breeds fit for purpose. Then purpose started to disappear and the focus turned to retaining breeds by purity pedigree and for conformation showing.

Now we are grasping on to purity and pedigree to the detriment of domestic dogs in general in my opinion. While I loathe the commercial scale and environment of mixed breed puppy factories, I truly believe what we are seeing is the contemporary version of blending dogs for modern purpose.

I am not saying we shouldn't try to retain breeds we have, but I lose hope for the domestic dog in general when the pedigree breeders get so up in arms about the possibility of making contemporary breeds and accepting a bit of change.

History tells us that the domestic dog population changes to suit the times. We need to let it happen. I for one am excited by the prospect.

I remember a thread on here a while back where I was pilloried for suggesting that we as breeders don't have a fundamental right to pontificate to folks about mix breeding. I maintain my position. There is a very nice couple over here who breed Bull Terrier cross Staffords and are very responsible, caring and ethical in their approach. Similarly there are plenty of unscrupulous, unethical, and uncaring pedigree breeders around...

I have a mixed breed dog boarding here for the rescue at the moment. I don't know what breed she is (if I had to guess it would be Amstaff cross Cattle Dog). Honestly she is the most beautiful girl and absolutely loves people and other dogs. Would make a wonderful family pet for those that don't fuss too much over pedigree.

I've never had a dog with pancreatisis, but i do have a good friend that does. He uses one of the vans complete mixes about 2/3 of the normal ratio with a very low fat kangaroo and chicken mince he gets from one of the pet meat suppliers. Swears by it.

This won't help with parentage, but your vet (or one in your location) should be able to do genetic testing, which will give you clarity of genetic make-up. It's not cheap though! Costs about $600 a pop here...

paying for that is a waste of money.

a lady had a purebred Australian Shepherd, paid for it to be dna tested. except there was a mixup and instead it was done for what breeds it was made up of. came back it had labrador, doberman, rottie an foget what else.

Australian Shepherds are a breed descended from some dogs that arrived in America with a shipload of australian sheep, hence their name.

parts of australia still keep and breed what they call German Coolies, no attempt has been done to my knowledge to get them accepted as an australian breed even though they have been a highly regarded sheepdog for over 100 or more years, they got their name from, have you guessed it? Arrived in australia with a shipment of sheep from Germany. I suspect it was some Coolies that came off that xhip in america with those sheep. Rotties or dobermans werent even created as a breed when the coolies landed here in oz .

and i am quite sure they never contributed to the makeup of either the coolie or the australian shepherd, those tests are designed for dogs of unknown parentage so no one can query their accuracy as to the results

I hear people say this quite a bit, but it's not my experience. That one example from who knows what lab doesn't make a rule. The lab my vet uses is very reputable and provides a very comprehensive report along with a breakdown of the identification has happened. The testing is just as useful, and reliable as genetic testing for disease prevalence.

This won't help with parentage, but your vet (or one in your location) should be able to do genetic testing, which will give you clarity of genetic make-up. It's not cheap though! Costs about $600 a pop here...

I can't watch the video ...is the guy OK ?

He is, but he is covered, literally covered with bites. Horrific. And his wife!! The poor woman just started crying the moment she opened her mouth. Such trauma --- they will suffer to some degree or other for a long long long time.

I’ve told this story before, but it happened again today. A woman who lives up the road from me has has her dogs attacked on several occasions. She is terrified now of large dogs. We were talking today at my front fence having met on the footpath walking our dogs. Because of past experience, the moment she said something about “I’m watching that big dog,” I ushered her into my yard and down to my side gate.

People who comment about how angry they get because the breed of dog is mentioned or some such thing, need to think of the victims.

I agree the victims need to be thought of. I have no problem with the breed of dog being mentioned when it clearly a pure bred dog of xyz breed. It's when cross bred dogs get labelled as some type of breed that i get upset.

I didn't mean to stir up an argument, so apologies for doing so.

Have found this thread a bit heartbreaking to be honest.

I know of a Min Pin that presented with the same issues and it turned out to be some kind of inflammation around the brain. Can't remember whole story sorry.

What a mind-bloggling and pointless waste of money for a rescue. "Waa, don't discriminate against our breeds. Our dog isn't an X, it's a Y, and we have the dodgy vet DNA test to prove it!"

I'm surprised that you can't see the issue with the DNA testing you do- given it's encouraging the same breed discrimination that you're claiming to be against.

I'm not sure why you are so angry.

How we spend our money is entirely our prerogative. You may think it is a waste of money, but due to the ridiculous BSL laws in WA if a dog gets classified as a pit bull it will have a very difficult life and is almost impossible to rehome.

Maybe you could check your facts before jumping to conclusions.

Definitely see your point BBB but they were looking for this owner and the dogs so anything that can POSSIBLY identify them is probably fair game. Different scenario for general reporting would be preferable, I agree.

Yeah I do understand and certainly pleased that this irresponsible owner has been caught. Hopefully the lady is prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Perhaps you would prefer for them to be referred to by obvious breed type- which would be bull breed?

As an aside, I can recall a thread on here about how three dogs, who appeared to be greyhounds, attacked a person. They were named by breed and nobody batted an eyelid. Nobody heehawed over whether or not they were definitely purebred greyhounds or if they were maybe actually whippets. But if a bull breed is responsible, suddenly we have to call them "mixed breed" or "unknown breed", even though we can clearly see that they are a particular type of dog?

In my opinion, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck, regardless of what a dodgy DIY DNA test kit says.

Yeah that's a fair enough point of view, and I do understand it. I don't think we should only use the term mixed breed etc with bull breeds at all. I'm saying if it is clearly a mixed breed, which the photos of those dogs show they are (were) then we should say that. Linking them to a breed (any breed) cause that's what we think they look like is in my mind a problem, and the media doing so even more of a problem.

My point was that you can't 'clearly see' that despite what you may think. We don't do dodgy DIY DNA tests, we have it done by a vet at a cost of $600 per animal. The results are often surprising, sometimes shocking. If it was cheaper we would have it done more often, as knowing the actual genetics of dogs find easier to fine homes for them...

Weird double post.

What breed?

It's not uncommon for some puppies to take a few days to settle and start eating again. You just keep offering the food and they will start to take it.

Are you feeding the same food as the breeder?

See. Even smart people on a dog lovers forum don't really get it. What hope is there for average Joe.

I'm not sure how sensible it is, but I'm pretty sure I would. I love my dogs like my kids.

I really hate terms like 'Stafford Cross'. It's very unnecessary to include the Stafford. They could, and should just go with mixed breed.

Drives me NUTS.

Why? The police needed help to find the dogs and the owner. “Mixed breed” could cover every size, colour, breed from the size of the Chihuahua up to the size of a Great Dane and the dogs were seen for more than a couple of seconds by several people.

Well because the evidence is very strong that visual identification of breed genesis in mixed breed dogs is next to impossible. Even very experienced canine specialist vets struggle at this. With this being the case, putting terms on dogs that have attacked like 'stafford cross', when there is no way of really knowing what the breed mixture is adds to the general fear in society surrounding Stafford and other Bull Breeds. Every now and then we will do genetic testing of dogs that may have an appearance resembling a pit bull terrier. You'd be surprised how often the dogs turn with either no Stafford, or very little Stafford genealogy.

I walk my Bull Mastiff and my Bull Terriers every day, and take one or more of them out and about with me all the time. I can't count the amount of times I've had someone tell me that I'm a disgrace for owning such dangerous dogs. Recently in a Pet Shop I had one of my Bully girls with me (and she is the most chilled out dog I have ever seen). She was simply sitting at my feet whilst I talked to the owner and a lady walked up to us, told me that she was disgusting, that bull terriers should be banned and that she should be put to sleep. The fear in society is real, and it does get targeted at responsibly bred and raised dogs who pose no more threat to society than non bull breed dogs from similar beginnings.

That's why.

Putting him outside may actually make the problem worse if you have intentions of them being together in the future. Isolation is very powerful to dogs, and they are smart. He will put it together that he is outside because the baby is in.

I would seriously advise get some professional help if there's any reputable dog trainers in your area. There is a variety of strategies that could be suitable, but a professional will be able to assess your exact situation and context.

EDIT: sorry missed your post above. Already on it!!