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Mikey88

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Posts posted by Mikey88

  1. 1 hour ago, Rebanne said:

    Your original post said you didn't want to breed.

    To register a pup with ANKC costs the breeder about 50 bucks. No way I'd pay a thousand for papers. What a rip off. 

    I know some breeders do charge extra for potential breeding quality, but remember, unless buying a mature dog, it's only potential. Of course if you pay extra for papers you are often getting a lot of mentoring from the breeder but not $1000 worth.

    Yes but in this case the dog is at a good price ive seen them cost the same as what she wants without main register or even abit more without main register. 

    But if i intend on breeding just dogs for the purpose of people wanting it as a pet then no point paying the extra cash for main register aye ? 

  2. 25 minutes ago, BDJ said:

    It depends entirely on what you want to do, and what agreement you have with the breeder.

     

    From the NSW website:

    The ANKC issues two types of registration papers,  and each puppy bought from an ANKC breeder will come with its own pedigree, either Main or Limited Registration. If a breeder has issued Main Register (blue) papers for your dog, it can be exhibited at a Conformation Show, used for breeding purposes or exported overseas. If the breeder has issued Limited Register papers (orange) it cannot be exhibited at a Conformation Show, used for breeding purposes or exported overseas.

     

    You note you wish to breed - again, it depends on the 'why'.  If you are planning on breeding with another dog of the same breed and selling for 'general' purposes - then most members of the public will be ok with a parent having limited register.  You are still going against the rules though.   But if you are wanting to show in an ANKC show, then you will be out of luck.

     

    I am not sure what you mean by 'they will be DNA tested'.  Why would they be tested?  And against what?  DNA testing in pedigree dogs is usually to verify the pedigree - not do a DNA test to check the pooch at your feet is actually a Pointer, or a pug or a whatever

     

    The fact you say that you can get mains registration for an extra $1000 - I assume either you have a great relationship with the breeder (who believes the pup is of outstanding quality *at this time* [note the at this time - they can either improve or not come on as expected] and is happy for you to breed/show/whatever with mains registration) OR you are buying of someone who is more focussed on $$$$.   If the former - great, chat with them about the differences.  If the later - well I would be running a thousand miles personally.

     

    Just a thought - breeding is not permitted on limited register.  So as long as you are going in with eyes wide open.  I don't agree or condone breeding from a dog on limited register - it can be done, but is against the rules

    I meant the breeders that sell em without any register have the parents dna tested proving they are real and they are cheaper then the one im looking at thats 1k more with papers  . So if i just wanted to sell as pets then i would be better off paying the cheaper price right ? 

  3. 5 hours ago, sheena said:

    You may be able to, but you would have buckley's chance of ever getting another dog off a reputable breeder, because word gets around & Limited means "cannot be bred from".  Most of the pedigree dogs that are desexed before they are sold, I would imagine, are the breeds mainly used in puppy farming.  You will never find a purebred, registered pup on Gumtree.  It is the Ankc register which you need to join if you want to partake in competition dog sports.  If you just want some cross bred or unpapered, pup form  untested parents & take a risk that the pup has no genetic faults & you will never want to do any dog sports, but you want to breed, then Gumtree is full of them.  But PLEASE do not buy aa Limited Register pup & then breed from it.   It makes me want to throw up that someone could be so unethical & dishonest to the breeder.

     

    So its more of a ethical thing to not breed of a limited register? Its not  legal thing ? Thats what ive been asking

  4. 5 hours ago, asal said:

     

    these days there are very very few who breed now that dont want to control the pup they bred from the cradle to the grave mate. That applies to anyone you get a pup from, not just an ANKC member.

     

    good luck on that quest. equally applies to most of the oodle breeders too, majority are already desexed before sale . my niece paid $7,000 for a blue merle cavoodle.

     

    she seemed totally unaware there are no merle cavaliers in Australia. nor to my knowledge are there any merle poodles in Australia?

     

    some one correct me if im mistaken?  n the little darling was already desexed at 8 weeks

    But if you didnt want to join a ankc how could they control what you do ? Also a cavoodle is a cross breed so you couldn't join the ankc anyways ? 

  5. 6 hours ago, sheena said:

    Just because a dog is sold on the Limited Register, doesn't mean that the dog has any faults that would exclude it from breeding or showing, but if you buy a dog on Limited Register then you are agreeing that you will not breed from that dog.  A good breeder will only put their very best pups on Mains Register, if at all, but that doesn't mean the rest of the litter have faults.  If that makes sense?  All my border collies have been on Limited Register & I signed a contract saying that I would not breed with my dogs. If I were to go against their wishes I could almost guarantee that word would get around that I broke my contract & I would find it very hard to ever find a good pup in the future.  But because my dogs are on Limited register, that doesn't mean that they are not good enough to breed from, just ethically I wouldn't & if I did then the pups would have no pedigree.  Limited register still allows you to take part in all dog activities except conformation shows & they don't need to be desexed to be able to do so, unlike a dog that has no pedigree which needs to be desexed before it can compete in ANKC activities

    So if you buy a dog on limited register is it illegal to breed that dog ? Or do you mean its only illegal if it states so in the contract you sign ? So in the contract if theres nothing about breeding the dog and say you buy on limited register yeah sure you cant join ankc but you can join a different organisation and breed it that way ? 

    So all this matters for the ANKC If a person did not care about joining the ankc then none of this would matter to them and they could breed the dog if they wanted ? Obviously with a different organisation tho 

     

    Because on gumtree i dont see any1 with ankc they are registered breeders with all there other breeding organisations that they are listing 

  6. 13 hours ago, asal said:

     

     

    one upon a time Mikey. New people were welcomed by ANKC members. You could choose to buy a main register pup if you wished to show and breed your puppy.  If you wanted a pet the breeder would give you a copy of its parents pedigrees so you knew its breeding.  Also once long ago there were three classes of puppies,

    That time did exist. it was in the 1970's and early 1980's.

     

    Pet,  not for breeding as they had a fault not suitable to be bred from.

     

    Breeding quality, good quality and conformation, well in the guidelines of the standard, quite suitable for breeding and thus on Main Register.

     

    Show quality, good quality and confirmation but had that star quality that would always place them above the breeding quality puppies.

     

    (my problem with the "show quality" is a percentage would be a tad more exaggerated in some conformation point that when bred together was and has for generations gradually moved many breeds away from the original standard, (eg, shorter and shorter faces, bigger and bigger eyes, narrower head, or broader head depending on the breed.) just to use Persian cats for example they removed "pleasant expression" so the gargoyles with virtually no muzzle squished beneath massive eyes could now win.

    in dogs Red setters began to resemble letter openers their skulls were becoming so narrow. French bulldogs and pekes. pugs and Cavaliers lost their muzzles. As my vet Richard said, they shorten the muzzles but the genetics isn't shortening their tongues or their pallets or their nasal passages which are still the same size and now jamming up inside so cant breathe, keep their tongue in their mouth, or even their tear ducts function without blockages.

     

    Today few seem to even know "breeding quality" existed

     

    Today from what I see in the adds a majority will only sell every single puppy regardless of quality on limit register.   I call them Proudly Dead End Kennels.

     

    They think they are the epitome of Ethical and Responsible.

     

    An unfortunate percentage of ANKC members are what I now think of as "the thought police"   They are the self appointed witch hunters of past era's.   And like any witch hunter, completely ignorant that other narrowed eyed thought police are eyeing them for elimination too. Their weapon of choice, the phone, busy dialing the rspca, animal welfare and the targets local council.

     

     

    what no one realised in the dog world was a lady began a new organisation in 1982, she called it PETA (people for the ethical treatment of animals)  nice cosy sounding name.  What it really was founded for was to eliminate all domestic animals. First on the agenda is dogs and cats.  about 1984 my ankc friends had began talking about "we have to get rid of backyard breeders and puppy farmers in our membership, they are ruining the reputation of the ankc".

     

    I looked at my friends sitting there in their loungerooms planning what was essentially a modern version of the Salem witch-hunts.

     

    I asked them, pointing to the back door.  "What is outside that door?    YOUR BACKYARD"  YOU are as eligible for elimination as every other ankc member, unless your living in an apartment with no backyard!"

    they looked at me as if I were stupid?

    I couldn't believe they have forgotten the lessons of the past? One of my friends parents are Polish, they knew about witch hunts by the Nazis, another friend is Jewish, he could speak 7 languages because his parents had fled the Hitlers pogroms and in their search for a safe haven been through 7 different language zones and learnt them all before arriving in Australia?   My own Mums fathers ancestors fled the Spanish Inquisition to Ireland to become the black Irish.

     

    so in those bad old days there were over 50,000 ankc members in a population of some 16 million Australians welcoming you to become an ankc member.

     

    fast forward to today, some 22,000 left in a population of now 28 million Australians piously sticking to the ideal of never breeding to sell "we dont breed to supply pets!"   I'm ethical, I only breed a litter to replace for the next generation.

     

    Sadly Mikey you are going to have a very hard time finding some one who will sell you a main register puppy.

     

    I do breed and sell main register puppies, but they are an unfashionable breed. also quite unsuitable for anyone who has no experience with a highly intelligent working breed.   So far pretty safe from attracting the interest of any actual puppy farm anyway as they are worth a fraction of the thousands the fashionable breeds get.

     

    you need to get to know as many people with the breed you do like and hope and pray you find a nice one who will consider selling you a puppy on Main register.

    But be careful.  when you buy your pup, make sure you ask can you have your puppy vet checked and return if your vet turns it down.

     

    there are two reasons for this, some depending on the breed you choose can have significant breathing issues.

    and as I discovered at a school sports day.  Although many breeders tell you upfront, yes I will sell you your puppy on main register so you can show it in the neuter classes. Many puppies today are already either desexed or vasectomised.   the lady at that sports day had her cute cavalier puppies in a pen, she didnt want to miss the sports day so had arranged for the new owners to pick them up there. As I played with the puppies I noticed the marks where stitches had been removed and commiserated with her how sad the whole litter had been born with hernias.   she blushed. admitted they were not done for hernias, the had all been desexed as 'None of the puppy buyers want to breed but they all insist they want them on main register, sooo they can't complain when none of them can reproduce can they?"

     

    to want to breed today is to be suspected of being "only in it for the money" you are intending to become a "greeder"

     

    Meanwhile there are so few purebred puppies to be found people are having to wait a year or more for even an already desexed puppy

     

    there are rebels like me who will sell on main register  to keep our breed from extinction. But sadly 99% are desexed by their owners before they are 12 months old either vet pressure or so many  believe the propaganda not to breed to contribute to the pounds.  There just isn't a next generation coming to keep our breeds going.

     

    but all the ankc breeds barring a miracle are on the slope to extinction

     

    my vet four years ago predicted within ten years most pedigree breeds will be on or beyond endangered.

     

    added to that the mad demand for oodle crosses

     

    few purebreds even unpapered are being bred together to fill the x breed market and thus too are heading for endangered

     

    PETA is so happy and confidant that last Melbourne cup day they went public over how successful their elimination campaign has been that they see the end of domestic dogs in sight.

     

     

    Can we who love our dogs wake up in time and stop destroying each other and our breeds before its too late?

     

    Peta threw in the seeds to begin the destruction from within.  (we have to eliminate puppy farmers, we have to eliminate backyard breeders,) came from PETA.

     

    Ankc members heard it and took up the cry, with no idea of the agenda behind it, can the pack be called off?  can they reunite? because divided they are falling like matchsticks.

     

     

    Thank you for your reply, it makes sense. And i just had a look at dogsonline and looked at a few breeds that intrested me every single ad said limited register so i can understand what your saying about ankc been dead End kennals. And the part about the backyard lol , okay one thing i dont understand is if they are breeding them and selling pups going through all the trouble of desexing the pups as you mentioned about the women in the park witch is full on i rekon. If they are so against other people getting into breedering then why are they breeding and selling dogs ? I dont understand. Are are they only breeding to better the breed ? And thats why the sell limited or desexed pups ? Or is it they want to be the only ones breeding dogs ? Can someone explain ..

    Also technically if you were to buy a pup on limited register of them you could still join a different organisation and breed the pup ? So you would still have the same bloodline except you wouldent own the name sorta thing of its ancestors? Is that how it works ?

  7. 1 hour ago, leac1801 said:

    Unless you want to show, and since you say you’re not interested in breeding, then you have no use for mains registered dogs and most breeders will not hand that over willingly. 

    So if i did want to show or breed i will need mains ? 

    But from what i read a few comments ago , mains are only needed if you wanted to join dogs nsw / ankc otherwise if u wanted ti join a different breeding organisation u wont need them sbd could still breed right ? 

     

    As for showing u absolutely need them obviously ye ? But breeding is different depending who you join

  8. 3 hours ago, Rebanne said:

    Yes but is it ethical? If you buy a dog from an ANKC breeder and it's on limited registration you have to ask yourself, and the breeder, why. It may have a fault that makes it not suitable for breeding but no impact on its life as a pet. Who knows what your dog may pass on if bred with another dog. And ignorance is no excuse. I'm in Victoria and the laws are quite strict. 

    I have msged two ANKC members and they didnt want to offer with the main register.  Would you say because they werent happy with the pup ? Or ?

     

  9. 11 hours ago, JRG said:

    Yes, it is rather complicated.

    as Rebanne says the only official registries are the ones accepted Internationally.  These associations keep and guarantee the Stud Book. Ie they record all litters that are officially registered as pure bred so that the pup’s pedigree can be traced back hundreds of years.  This means that when you buy an officially registered puppy of the breed of your choice, it is guaranteed  to be of that breed with no additions of other breeds   going back for hundreds of years.  ( most Stud Books were started in the 1800’s.

    Occaisionally people try to falsify records and get disciplined for their efforts because we can now get genetic information  which tells  us exactly who the parents and grand parents etc of a particular puppy are. ( and connect that individual to a certain family.)

     

    sorry if if I have bored you with my ramblings.  Genetic tracing of individuals has come a long way and there is still a long way to go, but accuracy underlies all Stud Books.  Groups set up alternative Registries (eg for mixed breeds)because they can’t guarantee that accuracy.

     

    Oh wow , okay so if somone wanted to be part of that then obviously they would HAVE TO get a dog with pedigree main register papers.  But if another breeder didnt care about that then they could buy a dog without main register and join some other breeding organisation become a licensed breeder then sell the pups legally yeah ? Im assuming thats what the people on gumtree are doing. 

    Also even if you brought of a ANKC member but you only got limited register you wouldent be able to join the ANKC and register the pup because you got a limited register so you cant own the bloodline pedigree but you CAN join some other breeding organisation without the main register and breed and sell the pups legally, is that correct? 

    • Like 1
  10. 10 hours ago, Rebanne said:

    as far as I am concerned the only real registers are the ANKC and their world wide equivalent, the racing greyhound registries world wide and, though I know little about them, the working dog registries that also have world wide connections. All others seem to be made up to suit themselves.

     

    Anyone can breed any dog they want. Whether they should is another matter entirely. Anyone can buy a dog from wherever they want.

     

    If you are looking for a pup to be a part of your family then I suggest you research the breed/s that interest you. Find out what health tests should be done and why. See copies of health tests done on parents, even if the pups are cross breds.  Don't believe the "vigor" of cross breds. Most ethical breeders DNA test their dogs nowadays.

     

    https://dogsvictoria.org.au/uploads/DV Registers_2018.pdf   explains main and limited registers for ANKC dogs

     

    If you don't want "strings attached" then you just keep looking for someone who will sell to you.

     

     

    So you can join other dog breeding organisations without main register of the dog you own and stil breed them and sell the pups legally?

  11. 8 hours ago, persephone said:

    "pet/backyard breeders" can register as breeders with their local council - whether they are breeding mixed breeds or whatever - so yes, they may be 'registered' , but NOT registered with any Kennel Control Council - therefore any pedigree they may posses cannot be authenticated/recognised. Ask them are they registered with their State's  control organisation. have a look here for the relevant bodies . 

    So basically anyone can breed and sell pups legally.  But if you wanted to join ANKC then you have to have pedigree and main register of the animal correct ? So for the other dog breeding organisations you can join them without having the main register of the dog anf still breed and sell pups legally? Is that how it works ? Thanks

  12. Hi im new to this topic and some things im trying to get my head around. 

     

    Can you only breed dogs that you have the main register for ? 

     

    Or can you breed dogs without the main register?

     

    Can you breed dogs on limited or no register? 

     

    Or to breed a dog do you need main register and pedigree papers of both parents ? 

     

    Are pedigree and main register papers the exact same thing ? If so then that would mean you have to buy a puppy with main register and pedigree to breed him right ? But then why when i msg someone about a pup and ask if the parents have a pedigree they say no but they are still register licenced breeders ? It doesnt make sense

     

     

    Do some dog breeding organisations require different things for example one may require main register and pedigree papers , one may require only main register? And one doesnt require any register  ? 

     

    Or do you legally have to have main register to breed execpt some organisations require pedigree papers where others dont ? 

     

    If somone can explain it all ill appreciate it so much

     

    Thanks so much .

    Abit about me im looking at buying a puppy i dont have any plans on breeding but i dont want any strings attached either

    Thank you

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