What's Wrong With My "cocker" ?

[frank]

Frank, the cocker is a "soft" dog, easy to train, and very attuned to people. You are not treating this dog the right way.

Can you spot the errors you made when he grabbed the oily rag?

Why has the dog been running away?

Why did the dog bite you?

Why did the dog bite the children?

This is the wrong dog in the wrong place. Find him another home. Please. Before you end up coming on here telling us you have euthanased the dog because he bit your nose off.

Poor, sad little dog.

easier said than done JED . we all love the dog . my kids write letters to him, and poems about him. letters to god about how happy he makes them . he hasn't done anything more than a bit of rough play . from over excitement with the kids . which i have been onto . and changed . the mower incident was my fault .

the message i get here is that i'm a terrible owner , and the dog has become a freak of nature . a bit harsh , dont you think.

[Erny]

... seeing K9 ...

I'm sure you will be well rewarded with the information and advice you gain from a visit there. As will your pup.

Please don't wait for another bite ...... the next one could be a doozie.

Edited October 24, 2007 by Erny

[huski]

easier said than done JED . we all love the dog . my kids write letters to him, and poems about him. letters to god about how happy he makes them . he hasn't done anything more than a bit of rough play . from over excitement with the kids . which i have been onto . and changed . the mower incident was my fault .

the message i get here is that i'm a terrible owner , and the dog has become a freak of nature . a bit harsh , dont you think.

The dog is not a freak of nature. It is a product of its environment.

We are simply frustrated that you are not taking this seriously enough to consult a behaviourist like K9.

We are concerned for you, your family and your dog. You would not get this passion and frustration through our posts if we thought it wasn't for a good reason.

Your kids writing letters and poems are not going to stop this dog from biting again.

ETA: Frank I don't feel as though you are taking this seriously. This is not an issue you can blame on breed, breeding or the dog itself, really. You need to take his warning as a serious message to you that the dog is not happy.

Edited October 24, 2007 by husky87

[Erny]

... the message i get here is that i'm a terrible owner ...

No - we don't know that. The only thing that is known is that you asked for help (original post) and that you were pointed in the right direction, but in spite of that .....

... and the dog has become a freak of nature. ...

This has NEVER been suggested. Nor is it now.

[EllieD]

Frank are you for real, sorry I can't believe this........something just doesn't add up somewhere

Beginning to think your showing contempt for these guys who are only trying to help!

[frank]

Frank, what happens when one of the children grab Bailey because he has just run off with their new toy ?

What will you do if he bites one of them and draws blood ? What if it is your little girls face ?

How do your wife and children feel about Baileys behaviour ? From what you say your wife is the primary carer, does she have concerns ?

well good points there .

the kids have been instructed by me not to play rough with him. they tie him up when they play cricket etc etc. without supervision . he seems to be learning that this is ok, as i have been training himm with treats , and his own play time . combined with some all in family play.

my wife has no issue with him. he is the perfect dog with her . my only issue with her is that she has allowed unsupervised play with our kids . but that has changed under my instructions .

without kids , there would be no problem at all. and to be honest i would probably play rougher then i do or have with him as i did with all my other dogs . but not with this one .

[cavNrott]

why is it that everyone thinks i have a thing against this dog, and am being cruel to him. for a start i am learning more about training the dog then the dog having a problem .

i dont really see this dog as having a problem. hes responses and actions to situation . has been entirely normal. ( breed specific) people who are comenting about no such thing as breed specific . i have been given evidence to the contrary.

You don't get it at all and the sad part is I don't think you ever will without an expert ramming it down your throat.

Whoever is giving you 'evidence to the contrary has no more clue than you have.

What your dog is doing is not completely normal. It's a result of the way he has been treated and his lack of training. Your complete lack of knowledge of dog behaviour is astounding.

do you not think the dog is learning just as i am .

but one thing is sure . never trust a dog . it is a form of respect to an animal, not to trust too much. more so when they are pups.

Oh he's learning alright. He's learning not to trust you one little bit and for good reason. Your dog is afraid of you.

I trust my dogs implicitly. They have earned my trust. I have never been bitten by any of my dogs.

if he bites again i will discuss it with my wife . however i feel it is up to us wether he bites or ( snaps) agiain . not the dogs .

I think the dog will decide whether or not he bites you. I doubt you or your wife will have any say in the matter. The only thing up for speculation is who gets bitten when you next give him no alternative than to bite out of fear and/or frustration.

Why aren't you getting the message Frank? You seem to have a complete mental block about it.

GET SOME PROFESSIONAL TRAINING BEFORE THIS DOG LOSES IT'S LIFE.

[kaywoman68]

well good points there .

the kids have been instructed by me not to play rough with him. they tie him up when they play cricket etc etc. without supervision . he seems to be learning that this is ok, as i have been training himm with treats , and his own play time . combined with some all in family play.

my wife has no issue with him. he is the perfect dog with her . my only issue with her is that she has allowed unsupervised play with our kids . but that has changed under my instructions .

without kids , there would be no problem at all. and to be honest i would probably play rougher then i do or have with him as i did with all my other dogs . but not with this one .

It doesn't seem fair to tie the dog up. How often does Bailey get tied up each day? Can you put him inside the house where he can roam while the kids are outside?

If Bailey is a perfect dog with your wife, then she needs to really help with the dog. The fact he doesn't seem to be trusting you wont help your cause at all.

You've also said a VERY important point!!!!! "without kids , there would be no problem at all."

Orson and Oi sees 40 odd children on a regular basis (I work at an after school care) and majority of the time there's 15-20 of them chasing, cuddling, patting and feeding them. There's no problems at all. It's all supervised and Orson and Oi snooze for the rest of the day cos they're sooooo tired afterwards.........

The majority of Cockers LOVE families especially kids. I feel sad for Bailey to not be able to play with the kids at all because of the way he's been brought up..........

[Livi]

Frank, your children are old enough to learn how to control Bailey during play, with some self control on their behalf and basic obedience with Bailey.

It will really build their relationship with him and their confidence if you teach them when he gets too hyped to stand still and ask him to sit/drop etc in a good strong voice and teach them how to praise him. I found the biggest challenge with kids is teaching them to use their voice properly with the dogs.

I have a 9 & 10 yo who I have raised puppies with so understand the challenges. I don't know Bailey or your family though so would never suggest it would be the same for you, but I guess the basic principles apply

Edited October 24, 2007 by sunny70

[frank]

The majority of Cockers LOVE families especially kids. I feel sad for Bailey to not be able to play with the kids at all because of the way he's been brought up..........

where has this been stated . he walks to school with the kids everyday . and gets dozens of pats from other kids . he walks home with them too, a couple of times a week.

he gets tied up for about 10 minutes to 1/2 hour . a couple of times a week . when we cant supervise them. the rest of the tiome it is about 3 to 4 hous play per day. with the kids . and with us , when the kids arent home.

can you see the little twists that are happening in this thread . and the picture being painted here . this isnt a lame thread it is serious , and i appreciate your responses . but to say that you aZre all concerned and are by no means criticising me , but showing compassion . give me a break .

belive me i'm not trying to twist it round . but . the dog is doing ok thanks . so are we . but i wont rule out 100 % that this wont take a turn for the worse . however i seem to be the only one here showing any hope .

[Jed]

Frank

easier said than done JED . we all love the dog . my kids write letters to him, and poems about him. letters to god about how happy he makes them . he hasn't done anything more than a bit of rough play . from over excitement with the kids . which i have been onto . and changed . the mower incident was my fault .

the message i get here is that i'm a terrible owner , and the dog has become a freak of nature . a bit harsh , dont you think.

No, Frank it is easily done. Loving a dog doesn't mean cuddling him when he is asleep, but failing to understand the very first thing about dog behaviour, and refusing to take advice, and making the dog into a fear biter - and thinking that tying him up is some sort of training.

The poor dog is not a "freak of nature" but you are a terrible owner. You know so little, you don't begin to understand the five thousand and five ways you have stuffed up this poor dog, which was quite normal before.

Cockers are easy to train. He should understand

NO

DOWN

SIT

LEAVE

COME

and obey.

That he doesn't is your fault. You might think you love him, but you don't. You don't have any concept of what "love" is as applied to dog ownership.

This dog is rapidly going from a teenage delinquent to a full blown canine criminal. Training him at this point is well beyond your meager training skills, but you still don't get it.

This dog NEEDS a new home - before one of your kids needs a new eye, or a new face or a new nose.

And the really s####y thing is that it is not the dog's fault, it's your fault, and you are too bloody stupid and pig headed to see it. You keep sprouting ever more meaningless gobbledegood in response to posters who are genuinely trying to help you.

You'll never get it.

Poor, poor dog, he only wanted and needed a good home, and a little affection and some minimal training, and you couldn't even provide those, so he could lead a long fulfilled life.

Frank, cockers love kids. Have you asked yourself why yours bites the kids? Have you? Maybe it's time for training by someone who actually knows dogs? Understands dogs? Can train dogs?

And, sunshine, that's NOT you.

[frank]

Frank, your children are old enough to learn how to control Bailey during play, with some self control on their behalf and basic obedience with Bailey.

It will really build their relationship with him and their confidence if you teach them when he gets too hyped to stand still and ask him to sit/drop etc in a good strong voice and teach them how to praise him. I found the biggest challenge with kids is teaching them to use their voice properly with the dogs.

I have a 9 & 10 yo who I have raised puppies with so understand the challenges. I don't know Bailey or your family though so would never suggest it would be the same for you, but I guess the basic principles apply

thanks for that . i will pass this onto them . the eldest is not having a problem with this . and i think the younger one will benifit from your advice . as i noted yesterday . he can wake up the whole neighbourhood with his spiderman tactics.

[Jed]

Frank

and are by no means criticising me

Well, I'm cirticising you.

however i seem to be the only one here showing any hope .

That's because you don't understand what is happening, and you wont understand until the bad thing happens, and the dog comes home from the vet in a black plastic bag. And the kids can write him letters in heaven.

I can't stand reading this any more, good luck, get help, give the dog away, will you.

[cavNrott]

thanks for that . i will pass this onto them . the eldest is not having a problem with this . and i think the younger one will benifit from your advice . as i noted yesterday . he can wake up the whole neighbourhood with his spiderman tactics.

Oh, FFS if you have no clue how to teach your dogs how can your children know anything about training a dog. Do you want to set them up to get bitten again?

Despite people explaining in fine detail that it is unfair to the dog to tie it up when the kids are playing you're still doing it.

Sadly you seem to think a kid with a loud voice and spiderman tactics will cut it? You haven't taken any advice given in this thread on board. Is it stupidity or stubborness?

You can make excuses for the way this dog has turned out by calling it a freak of nature but I can tell you right now that no one in their right mind believes you. This dog is a product of it's lack of proper treatment and training.

Edited October 24, 2007 by cavNrott

[frank]

thanks for that . i will pass this onto them . the eldest is not having a problem with this . and i think the younger one will benifit from your advice . as i noted yesterday . he can wake up the whole neighbourhood with his spiderman tactics.

Oh, FFS if you have no clue how to teach your dogs how can your children know anything about training a dog. Do you want to set them up to get bitten again?

Despite people explaining in fine detail that it is unfair to the dog to tie it up when the kids are playing you're still doing it.

Sadly you seem to think a kid with a loud voice and spiderman tactics will cut it? You haven't taken any advice given in this thread on board. Is it stupidity or stubborness?

You can make excuses for the way this dog has been treated by calling it a freak of nature but I can tell you right now that no one in their right mind believes you. This dog is a product of it's lack of proper treatment and training.

sorry . i was just trying to be nice and reply to some advice offered .

[joanne76]

The first dog I owned in my adult life never received any training ever.. I honestly had no idea about training. I was lucky with her that she was a very calm quiet dog and would automaticaly stop and come when called. Since she passed away I have a new Lab, I decided before I got lola that i was going to take her to puppy pre school. We had such a great time and i found it so rewarding and educational that we continued on to complete the Delta Canine good Citizen course. We now have weekly training sessions which Lola loves and its a chance for her to see her doggy friends.

Frank, training doesnt have to be a big deal, it can be fun for you and your dog and the difference it can make in the relationship between you and your dog is unbeleivable. There is nothing more rewarding than having a well socialised dog who you can take anywhere. I beleive you should be able to trust your dog and he should be able to trust you.

I live about 15 mins away from you Frank. My trainer is in St Clair, She is a behaivourist. I would recommend you giving her a call, she does house visits and trains you to train your dog. She also explains to you WHY your dog does the things she does.

Her name is Linda from Suburban Paws ph 9834 2525

Give her a call, she also hold group classes for puppies, adolescents and adults.

Youve really got nothing to lose but everything to gain.

Goodluck

Jo

Edited October 24, 2007 by joanne76

[Poodle wrangler]

Frank- we are criticising the methods you are using in an attempt to train your dog.

The evidence is that what you're doing isn't working:

1. Biting incident in April,

2. Another biting incident with the kids recently

3. Dog's bitten you.

Do your kids ever have friends over? What if he bites one of them? Many parents will demand the dog is PTS and can have that enforced by council.

Even if the dog's tied up, they might tease him (kids can do that sort of thing).

I'm sure your wife does her best, but any parent will understand how you take your eyes off kids for 30 secs and they get into trouble.

What's happening is NOT normal in any way. I've had various dogs since I was 5 years old, including pound dogs with dodgy backgrounds, and have never been bitten. Ever.

I'm not a dog expert, but am not ashamed to say when I'm not managing a situation effectively and ask for help.

In this case your whole family would benefit and I can't understand why you keep saying it's all OK? A biting dog is not OK!

If you can afford the Falcon, why not some 1:1 training with the whole family?

[chloebear]

Frank, what does your wife think about the problems with Bailey, and what is she wanting to see done?

[dougal]

There was recently a story on "It's me or the Dog" involving an American Cocker and an English cocker. Family loved the dog, although didn't provide the right leadership and training - child ended up badly bitten, dog ended up dead.

If somebody has a copy would they be kind enough to send it to Frank. Maybe a visual presentation of what can happen might help.

[Poodle wrangler]

There was recently a story on "It's me or the Dog" involving an American Cocker and an English cocker. Family loved the dog, although didn't provide the right leadership and training - child ended up badly bitten, dog ended up dead.

If somebody has a copy would they be kind enough to send it to Frank. Maybe a visual presentation of what can happen might help.

"Mauled" was the term used for the last attack before it was PTS. Kid spent hours in hospital. They thought this was a case of "cocker rage" which is slang for an uncommon neurological disorder diagnosed by a vet. It doesn't sound at all like what Frank has described in his dog.

The other cocker was growling aggressively at the owners. The difference in this dog after a trainer worked with the family was astounding. Like a different dog and the whole family were able to finally enjoy having this dog around. Didn't crush the dog's spirit in any way. In fact because of the improved behaviour the family spent more time with the dog than b4. win-win.

Common thread in "It's me or the dog" is how the owners wished they'd got help sooner. In some cases the bad behaviour has gone on for years, with stress on relationships, arguments etc.