Title Changed, Molly The Labrador's Thread.

[littlelabrador]

okay, this is getting so confusing with so many opinions, but i am glad of the advice offered.

I cant tell then, if she is biting or nipping.

With my daughter yesterday, she was skipping towards the house, Molly ran after her and jumped at nipped/bit at her clothes. What is that then ?

With my husband, he is sitting on the lounge, she jumps up towards him, front legs on the lounge, and tries to bite/nip his legs. When he says 'NO', she then tries again, and barks several times at him. If he pushes her down, and says 'SIT', she will try to jump back up at him, barks again, or tries to bite/nip at his feet, lower legs, etc. So what would you call that behaviour ??

I cant buy a crate. I have a wooden playpen, about 120x120cm, will that do for timeouts, or should i put her in the laundry with the door shut ?

With the food, this morning i made her sit before feeding, went to pat and she growled, so i just left her, went back in 30 seconds later and she growled when i came back in. She obviously thinks her food is going to be taken away. I dont know why she'd think that as it never has been. FYI, my daughter has never been anywhere near her when Molly is eating either. Hubby feeds her in the mornings usually. I am going to go through the TOT thing, just dont have time today, will try and look at it tonight.

How on earth do i find someone who will come to our house and assess her ? I did look at the K9 site, but it seemed that you go to them, its a long way to drive, probably 3 hours for us, (Molly got carsick on our 1.5hr drive home from the breeders). I looked in the phone book but how do you know who is reputable and who isnt. There weren't a lot of them in there either. The central coast dog obedience club had no help to offer btw. It is pouring rain here today, is supposed to be for days, so puppy preschool wont be on tomorrow either.

To be honest, i must admit, that she is so darn lovable during the day with me, we just had a lovely cuddle not long ago, she sat on my lap for ages lapping up the stroking, lol, BUT, when she acts like this at night, she does scare me, and i am worried she will bite and scare my daughter.

[alanglen]

Have just caught up with the thread and I can really understand how frustrated you must be getting! call the bite/mouthing whatever you like, it is highly likely to scare any child, particularly if she hurts. Also the growling around food is completely unacceptable. She may think you are going to take it awy, she may also think that she ill get rid of you by growling (which appears to be working), not fussed why she is doing it, other than to say it needs to stop asap. Personally I would have thought this girl needed some discipline and pack order. By discipline I don't mean hurting her but I do mean, authority time. Time out only works if it is a boring place and going there needs to be immediate and without speaking or any possible positive. Personally I use outside. I do have crates but I find by the time i grab a pup, rescue dog or an adut lab and put it in a crate the dog has forgotten why it's there. I have a loop lead handy at all times, over the head when growling and outside, no speaking no nothing. Stays there until settled, end of story. If it happens again then again outside.

I really understand this is getting to be a very difficult scenario for you and maybe this little girl is too much for you. I think she should settle pretty quickly but if you don't curb it she is likely to end up a wild child and growling and biting roughly. Really and honestly I would suggest you spoke to the breeder or a rescue group to see if rehoming might be appropriate. An older dog might be more appropriate. this isn't something I often suggest but she needs training and your family need some guidance and help and finances do come into it. Getting a personal trainer out to your home is almost guaranteeed to cost more than a crate ever would. Anyway I really hope that I haven't upset you and I do think that it sounds like you are doing your best but pet needs to be a whole family situation and she may be too much for hubby and child. Anyway the decision is yours and I wouldn't do it lightly but se does need to be established in the lower part of the pack very quicky. She is young and will come around but she needs time and money put into training and work. Best wishes.

[huski]

Well, like i said, we had a quiet day. When i brought my daughter home from preschool, Molly didnt seem that interested in her, and was well behaved until about an hour later. She came to life as such, outside, racing around after her, which is ok, but then she started chasing and biting at her clothes, and started jumping up on her. Twice she got put in a time out in the laundry, it didnt seem to do a lot of good. I've put my daughter to bed now, and i had about a 15 minute ball play outside with Molly. She seems totally stuffed now, and is lying quietly. I'm sure she'll be at it again when hubby gets home.

My beagle was like this as a little puppy. She would be sleeping most of the time or lazing around and then suddenly - BAM! Major zoomies. She would run around and around and around barking that hound bark that beagles do when they are excited or chasing things. She would be hyper. She would be very difficult to calm down. Her eyes would go "wild"

Zoomies are not unusual and IMO I don't think it is unusual for a puppy to be mouthing or nipping when it is excited, as it has not yet been taught that this is not acceptable behaviour.

What I would do with Daisy when she got major zoomies would to get her to focus her energy on a game - so I would play fetch with her and throw her toy, get her to sit when she bought it back to me and wanted me to throw it again etc. That way I would be controlling her energy (to a point) and putting it into something constructive (for her) that didn't involve running around, jumping on furniture etc.

[littlelabrador]

Has anyone here used Barkbusters ?? They have been recommended, and they do come to your house, which is what i would like, so the trainer can see how she behaves here, as it isnt the same as at puppy school.

alanglen - yes i am upset ! I dont want to get rid of this dog. Aside from the exhorbitant amount she cost just to buy, and what we've paid in vet bills so far, we love her already. When she is settled , she is adorable ! I really am interested in getting someone here to sort her out. She was such a timid little thing 3 weeks ago, and the first week she was very quiet, none of this biting, but we didn't realise she wasn't well. Now shes well, and is gaining a lot of weight, her personality seems to have changed, so im not sure which is the real personality. Anyway, rehoming would be the absolute last resort, only if nothing else worked. My daughter would be absolutely distraught if we had to give her away.

I should say too, someone suggested hand feeding her, sorry cant remember who, but i did that at lunch time today, with no problem, she was quite calm about it. But yet, i put her bowl down and she gets aggro . So, if time out has to be boring, then the laundry would be the best place, theres absolutely nothing in there for her to do. Outside, she ran go and run around, play with sticks etc. So if im going to use the laundry as the place for time out, then i should not feed her in there should i ?

And i did email the breeder, and have not had any response.

[poodlefan]

Littlelab:

Has anyone here used Barkbusters ?? They have been recommended, and they do come to your house, which is what i would like, so the trainer can see how she behaves here, as it isnt the same as at puppy school.

Any one can do a six week course with Barkbusters and buy a franchise. You want someone with some serious experience and Barkbusters standards are highly variable. I'd not let a BB trainer near my dogs.

[sheree_e4]

Please try what I advised eailier in the thread........I have done this with many food agressive dogs and pups,this way they learn that you are the source of food.

WEEK 1.only fed from hand no bowl.(pat with other hand while feeding)

WEEK 2. hand feed but with hand in bowl with pup taking food out of hand.(pat with other hand while feeding)(food is not in bowl,have it on the bench and take in your hand to the bowl....only a couple of peices at a time -remember to let pup take the food from your hand)

WEEK 3. food in bowl but hand is in the bowl while eating.pat aswell

By week 4 90% are happy to be patted while being fed.

If at step 2 or 3 the dog starts growling or trying to bite go back a step!

[poodlefan]

Sheree:

By week 4 90% are happy to be patted while being fed.

And the other 10%?

I don't mean to pick on your posts Sheree but the very technique you're advocating can also exacerbate a resource guarding issue. If you want a concrete example of this, ask Centitout about what happened with one of her puppies when a family followed this advice. You haven't seen this pup and you don't know for sure what the owner is dealing with. None of us do.

Littlelab a growl is a warning. Never ignore it and never push the dog when it's growling or you may be bitten. I'd be doing nothing other than feeding the dog in isolation before a professional assessment is made.

Show me two trainers and I'll show you two recommendation on what to do. If you want this to improve, get in the car and spend one day a couple of hundred dollars with someone with both the qualifications and experience to assess your pup and give you a carefully considered program for dealing with this issue.

If you keep interfering with this pup's food you run a serious risk of making this worse. Keep mucking about with it's food when it's growling and you may provoke a bite. If it happens it will be your fault and you'll have taught your pup the one lesson you never want it to learn - that biting stops unwanted human behaviour.

You need a big picture on what is happening with this pup in your family. All of these behaviours are indicators of the relationship between the pup and the your family members. Make an investment in the future of your family unit - you won't regret it.

[sheree_e4]

The reason I say 90% is that some dogs take longer than others to retrain,some pick up quickly others don't.

I don't say PUSH the pup at any time if you feel that it is not helping stop it's that simple.

But in my personal experience all the dogs I have worked with ...the problems have been resolved,but then again I am very strict and the dogs learn quickly who's boss.

By all means get in a behaviourist if desired but in the mean time look at the pack dynamics.

[poodlefan]

Sheree:

But in my personal experience all the dogs I have worked with ...the problems have been resolved,but then again I am very strict and the dogs learn quickly who's boss.

Sheree, quite a few behaviouralists regard resource guarding as manageable but not curable. You, Littlelab or I might teach this pup not to resource guard from anyone of US but it does not necessarily mean that this pup or any of those other dogs you worked with won't grow up to resource guard from people or children who have not established a higher rank order over it.

You can't "alpha" a dog out of every behavioural issue. Sometimes, you simply mask it until a lower ranked person happens along. Sometimes that person is the dog's owner or a family member.

Littlelab, this pup has been through a food related illness where, it would appear that it could not obtain proper nourishment for a few weeks. Think for a moment, about how that's shaped the value of food at a very important stage in its development. This food guarding might be anxiety related or it could be dominance related but absolutely no one can tell you that without meeting and observing the dog and talking though it's history with you.

Remember this this is a pup in a family with young children. In order to ensure the safety of those children AND to give the pup the best possible chance of growing into a happy, well adjusted adult, a professional evaluation is warranted IMO.

Edited November 2, 2007 by poodlefan

[huski]

Has anyone here used Barkbusters ?? They have been recommended, and they do come to your house, which is what i would like, so the trainer can see how she behaves here, as it isnt the same as at puppy school.

As poodlefan said - stay far FAR away from Bark Busters!!

They will cost you at least as much as a session with K9 Force does.

In terms of feeding please check out Triangle of Temptation, it is very successful and IMO everyone should use this with their dogs regardless of any behavioural problems they have:

http://www.k9force.net/index.html?row2col2=tot.html

[sheree_e4]

Sheree, quite a few behaviouralists regard resource guarding as manageable but not curable.

I agree,I personally have a dog who is the same way regarding her ball - all other dogs can take it except my koolie(who does not know what a ball is for and never picked one up ),but kirah does not realise this so I have to control everything that happens.

I think in this instance that if the bowl is removed totally and she is hand fed for awhile say 2 weeks to see if it works even not trying step 2 and 3 of my previous post that her attitude will change,if not then arrange for professional help,I think once the pup learns that food is coming from her owner and does not just appear in her bowl she will improve.

eta - I could be totally wrong and she could be worse than I think she is.... but I have not seen her ,so I am just saying what I would do assuming she is being a 'normal' puppy in other areas,which to me she sounds like she is.

Edited November 2, 2007 by sheree_e4

[poodlefan]

Sheree:

eta - I could be totally wrong and she could be worse than I think she is.... but I have not seen her ,so I am just saying what I would do assuming she is being a 'normal' puppy in other areas,which to me she sounds like she is.

What you would do hypothetically speaking, assuming this is a 'normal' puppy is not necessarily what this puppy's owner should do though is it?

As I said in my first post Sheree, internet diagnosis is fraught with risk. The risk here is the safety of the OP and her family and the future of this pup.

Personally, I think you're probably right. However I'm not keen on having someone base their actions on that.

Edited November 2, 2007 by poodlefan

[4leggedvariety]

Littlelabrador,

I think by now you would have found that different people will give you very different advise. IMO there is a serious rank issue here and your puppy is probably the hyperactive nervous type. Not enough stimulation, it gets into mischief. Too much excitement is just goes over the top. Very hard to find the right balance for someone who may not have had this type of dog before. Your previous retrievers are all probably mild tempered. Since it has been so sick since it was a small pup, you and your whole family would probably have catered to it a lot more than normal & it is only understandable, but dogs see that very differently.

You do need professional advise. Just a word of caution though. You mentioned that you can't afford home consults by professional behaviourists. I can tell you even if you can and you see a few of them, (which i have had with my first lab), they will all give you different opinions.

Also beware of the title 'Behaviourist'. Someone who has done a lot of studies with letters behind their names do not necessarily mean they understand dogs. I would not pay money to any behaviourist who does not own, train, handle dogs or have no experience in living with a pack of dogs. If I was to consult any of them now, I would ask them to bring along their own dogs. You can judge how worthy this person is by the control and behaviour of their own dogs outside of their own homes in strange envirnments. If they refuse, they are not worth listening to.

[Jed]

The puppy grabbing your clothes/body is playing.

An analology is 2 children playing and running - one is ahead, the other runs up behind him and grabs him by the sleeve. This is exactly what the pup is doing - but he has no hands, so has to use his mouth.

When pups play, they bite and grab each other - by the leg, tail, ear. They grab the older dogs' ears - and as soon as the older dogs yelp, they stop. They were only playing.

You need to correct the behaviour - in a growly voice to distract the pup, and do it every time it does it, and ask it to sit. No running with the kids until there is some semblence of obedience.

Val Bonney, imho, an excellent dog trainer has written a very good book, which will help you - called "Who's The Boxx" - she has a website - I think www.valbonney.com.au or google it, and you can order on line - about $25 I think. This will explain what is happening, and help you to overcome it.

If the pup bites at your husband's clothing, push the pup away, and growl. Then ask for sit, and reward. No reward until the grabbing stops and she is sitting. Then stroke gently, and praise.

[littlelabrador]

ok, big breath here. Yes, a LOT of different advice.

Sheree, I can understand what you are saying. Molly does not seem to be aggressive when eating from my hand at all. I'm assuming this is because she has done this for the rewards with training. In terms of 'health', we think she has an allergy/intolerance to something, something that was in the supercoat. SHe was on that from the breeders. 1 weeks on that here, then because the antibiotics did nothing, and she'd been on chicken/rice for too long, the vet then changed her to hills prescription i/d, for gut problems. Her bowel actions are completely different on this, formed and only a few times a day, and she is now gaining weight well. I think she would be close to 8kg now. The first couple weeks we had her, she was practically inhaling her food, because she wasnt well, we had her on plain cooked chicken and rice, probably 12 days in total, with nothing else. In the time she was on the chicken and rice, i kept saying to the vet i was concerned she wasn't getting enough nutrition and that she seemed very very hungry.

I do think that is what has caused the problem around food. Last night and this morning, she ate so fast that she was heaving after it, almost making herself sick.

Last night when the barking/jumping/biting at my husband started, we said 'no' very gruffly firmly, and put her in the wood playpen. She whined and barked for a while, then lay down with a defeated look on her face. When she was quiet we let her out. We had to do this twice, then she calmed down and went to sleep on the rug !

I am going to read the TOT today, and i think i will enquire about the K9 force on monday.

[4leggedvariety]

Good to hear you have had some success. I think what you did was correct regarding the nipping behaviour. Just remember as Jed said it is like 2 puppies playing, just not on human skin & clothes. Once she calms down, redirect that play behaviour onto a toy and you initiate & finish the game on your terms and then put the toy away. Good to hear that you are contacting K9 force.

Since she is not aggressive with food when you hand feed her, for the time being, it may be worth trying handfeeding her all the time so as not to inflame the situation anymore until you seek professional advise. One suggestion may be for each bit of food, hold the food in your hand and only give it to her after an 'OK' command. Think in your head that the food belongs to you, the dog can only have it if you say so and do not let puppy decide when she can take the food. I think this is the basis of TOT.

Think confidence & you will project confidence.

[Miranda]

I am going to read the TOT today, and i think i will enquire about the K9 force on monday.

little labrador the TOT can be used in many situations, not just at feeding time, I use it before my dogs get bones, a favourite toy and I even use it at the park, all my dogs have to sit and stay off leash before I release them for a run. What it does is teach the dog that all resources come from you and that you are in control of everything be it food, toys, games, runs whatever. This reinforces your position as leader, increases the dog's respect for you and improves the dog's focus (K9 can probably explain it better).

TOT isn't the be all and end all of training, but if you have a dog that has learned TOT you are off to a very good start, it is an invaluable training tool, especially when you have a dog like yours that likes to push boundaries.

[littlelabrador]

Well i've read through the TOT and think i understand it, but i dont know what a 'tieback' is, and we dont have any rope at all ! So, i will have to get some rope tomorrow or monday, and go from there.

I've tried to keep things very calm around here today, and hubby has been out three times with her for ball sessions, to expend the puppy energy, and she is actually behaving okay today. I've tried to keep my daughter away from her other than playing ball, but she snuck in when i went to the toilet and i came back to find them having a cuddle. It is really hard to have 100% supervision of the two of them, but am really trying to do that. (not that we weren't before, but am being more cautious now) One or two little jumps at my daughter's clothes, when outside,but has stopped when scolded. We are out tonight for dinner (first time since we got her), so not sure what will happen when we get home.

One question, if anyone knows the answer.... with Molly being on the prescription food, i have not used anything other than that as reward treats. Is there something i can buy to use that will be gentle on her tummy, i'm thinking that using her normal food, the novelty will wear off quickly. Everything i looked at in the supermarket seems to have the byproducts and fillers etc. Would those liver type treats be suitable, or do they cause diarrhoea in susceptible dogs ?? anyone ? thanks.

[littlelabrador]

One other question Molly has not yet had any bones. Do you think if i introduced a bone now, the food aggressiveness would increase, or would it give her something to do for an hour or so ??

[sheree_e4]

I think liver treats will be fine in small doses,a treat sould be no bigger than a cat bickie so you need to break them up.If you find she has a reaction maybe try chicken.Hills also have a food called sensitive stomach so you may be able to give her that aswell.