Clicker Training V The Old Fashioned Way

[Blue Fox 001]

I hope this isn't too silly a question but I'm going to ask anyway ! I have been reading a lot about clicker training as we hope to get a new pup later this year and I'm a little confused .

I trained my GSD (a few years ago now) by the old fashioned way eg. positioning with treats then saying sit and rewarding, teaching to heel on a check chain with treats and rewarding when he got it right, and checking when he didn't. Calling come while on lead, running backwards and rewarding him when he got it right (you get the picture ) While he is not an obedience champion (although was never trialled so perhaps he could have been) he is a well adjusted, intelligent and obedient canine citizen and a joy to take places. He has a solid recall, only has to be asked once for all commands etc..

After reading quite a bit about clicker training I am wondering if I just got lucky with him? Is clicker training that much better than the old way (or my way )? I am happy to try some thing new (new to me anyway) for the new pup if the general consensus is that clicker is the way to go, or could I just go with the way I know?

To a novice the clicker triaing seems a little confusing - you click for just about everything, how does the dog know what behaviour is being clicked for without a verbal cue? I still have a lot more to read so perhaps I am jumping the gun and need more education.

Your thoughts most appreciated as always. Apologies about the long post but I wanted to try and explain myself as best I can

[lovemesideways]

Well I for one have No idea about clicker training, my familys 2 GSD's where taught the old fashioned way, and perfectly obedient Lovely dogs

[The Spotted Devil]

Not a silly question at all!

I trained my ACD the "old fashioned way" too....she was a beautifully behaved dog (CDX) but I still wish I knew then about clicker training. I'm using clicker training with my young Dally - not exclusively but more than I planned because he gets such a kick out of it. The idea is to provide a very accurate marker of the desired behaviour (associated with a small treat as positive reinforcement - I also add "good boy!") so timing on the part of the trainer is absolutely essential. I should add that you can use a verbal marker (e.g. 'yes') but I prefer to work with the clicker - horses for courses I guess I've taught everything from a heel position to straight 'fronts' to touching my hand (or other object) with his nose and whacking an object with his paw. Once they get the hang of an exercise you start randomly reinforcing the behaviour.

Sometimes it's just fun to get the clicker out and have no plan. One thing I did with Zig was to place a bucket in the middle of the room and click/treat any interaction with it. In the beginning he had no idea what was going on and gave me a sit/drop/stand in attempt to gain a reward. Then he just sat and barked at me in disgust However, he looked at the bucket and I clicked/treated - the look of wonderment on his face was sensational.....by the end of the short session he would stick his head in the bucket and wait for his reward.

It seems to get the dog to think outside the square a little.....and they present you with behaviours that you could never work out how to teach sometimes!

One of the best things is that it's a lovely, fun way to tire a puppy/young dog out when you don't want to be over-exercising those precious joints. Or when you're not well, you can sit quietly in a chair and train your dog!

ETA: Once the dog volunteers the behaviour, you introduce a command. Once that is well established you only reward when you ask for the specific behaviour. Hope that makes sense!

ETA (again!): It also allows you to break down a very complex behaviour into small, manageable steps.

Edited February 3, 2008 by The Spotted Devil

[Guest Tess32]

I don't think there is a clear cut answer and I think BOTH SIDES often argue the point in a narrow minded fashion. For example, people have said on here that they don't like clicker training because it's "all positive". This is a fallacy. There are SOME trainers who use a clicker and consider themselves "all positive", but clicker training by itself does not equal "all positive".

It depends on so many things when you decide how to train something. Some people are simply *not that good* at training, and would be hopeless at clicker training. Some people would be hopeless at using "traditional" methods for various other reasons. Some dogs prefer more "obvious" direction while others shut down at hands on compulsion training and thrive at clicker training. It all depends.

Personally I use clicker training to *teach* most behaviours. I love seeing a puppy work out they can offer behaviours in order to get rewarded and I find they pick up other behaviours more easily because a truly clicker savvy dog ends up learning how to learn. I prefer using a clicker because I click faster than I remember to say "yes", but IMO a verbal marker is pretty much the same thing, if you can do it correctly. However for those into shaping behaviours very gradually, I don't think you can beat a clicker as it is simply more precise than words.

I do personally think it's better to have get a behaviour to be strong before you add a cue - eg I don't see the point of saying "come" when they are in the initial learning stages and 'come' can become associated with a less than great recall. I don't see the point of saying sit and forcing them into a sit before they even know what you want. I personally, find that teaching all these behaviours without compulsion is a lot more fun and the puppy can again, 'learn how to learn' instead of being just told everything.

Just remember that the dog doesn't have a clue what your verbal cue is for a while anyway - it's just to make the human feel better.

Do a lot more reading before you train, because any kind of training can be totally stuffed up if you don't truly understand what you are doing and the basics and theory behind it. Plenty of people have incorrect timing with a clicker, and plenty of people have incorrect timing with a check chain.

[Kavik]

I also clicker train, but not exclusively. Like Spotted Devil said it is great for interaction with objects. I've taught nose and paw targets and also sticking head in bucket as part of putting an object in the bucket. I also used it for teaching 2on/2off contacts for agility, and retrieving a dumbell. You do need patience though as at the start it can take them a while to figure out what you want and can be frustrating. You start with broad parameters and then narrow as the dog gets the idea.

For some things I lure though or use other methods, including training in drive. I like to keep lots of tools in the toolbox and use what is appropriate to the dog and situation

[Blue Fox 001]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Can anyone suggest a good book? I am currently just surfing the net, and getting lots of info but I do love a good book

The new one won't be here till after mid year so I have lots of time to learn and perhaps use the old GSD as my guinea pig for some training for me - he is very accommodating in this respect dear old man.

[The Spotted Devil]

I can't suggest a book but if you're concerned about timing and co-ordination, try watching a game of sport on TV such as AFL and click every time the commentator mentions a specific player's name. Or you could come up with something else if sport isn't your thing I also can recommend the Black Dog i-clicker with wrist strap that I purchased on-line

[Blue Fox 001]

I can't suggest a book but if you're concerned about timing and co-ordination, try watching a game of sport on TV such as AFL and click every time the commentator mentions a specific player's name. Or you could come up with something else if sport isn't your thing I also can recommend the Black Dog i-clicker with wrist strap that I purchased on-line

Thanks Spot I have seen the Black Dog ones advertised - think I will get one and have a go. Unfortunately being the middle of pretty much nowhere I do not have anyone to help so I will be muddling on by myself, this is why I love to read as much as possible and as Tess said get some good theory behind the practice. When you don't have someone to watch and tell you whats going wrong you well and truly need the theory.

[Guest Tess32]

If you want mostly theory to start off with "don't shoot the dog" by Karen Pryor

[The Spotted Devil]

Oh and also have a read of the trick training forum - it's brilliant and full of good ideas

[HeartandSoul]

I trained a dog in the traditional way. I had an obedient, well mannered animal. I switched to clicker training and I have an obedient well mannered happy companion.

Clicker training changed me more than it changed my dog

[WinGus]

I'm starting clicker training at the moment as opposed to traditional training. I have to say it definitely is more difficult muddling my way through it by myself. I got the Karen Pryor clicker and book from her website and will read Don't Shoot the Dog (which I also got from her) shortly. She's having a sale on all her books at the moment and the shipping isn't too bad! www.clickertraining.com

I have the clicker hanging on one of those retractable ID card holders that hang off your waistband. I find it much more convenient than having it on a lanyard (too high to reach quickly) or on the wrist (always in the way when I want to do something else).

ETA: If you want to borrow Don't Shoot The Dog, see this thread: http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=123000.

Edited February 4, 2008 by WinGus

[HeartandSoul]

get yourself an i-click - makes clicking much easier and you can click with almost any body part

[becks]

i would suggest you give it a go with your current dog. My old giant (8 years at the time) learned a new trick in just a few minutes by using the clicker. like spotted devil and her bucket, but I used a foot stool and the giant put her head onto the stool (after being clicked for showing and interest and then getting closer to it, she was the one who decided to offer her chin resting on the stool) this later at her dinner time when I asked for a down before she got her dinner, instead of just doing a down she also dropped her head onto her paws.

This has remained one of the behaviours that she offers if i have something she wants.

i find clicker great for teaching sendaway very quickly.

I also have a dog who just doesn't get the clicker at all, if she isn't shown (lured) what I want her to do, then she just can't be bothered to try to work it out, makes her brain hurt!!

A good way I was told to practise your timing with a clicker, bounce a ball and click when it is at it's highest point of the bounce (or you can do it as it hits the floor)

[helen]

I use both clicker training and reward based training without the clicker. I think the more complex a behaviour is the more likely I am to use a clicker and find it great for tricks. I also like to use the clicker for a while while a dog is young so it is ingrained in their brain and do some more 'thinking' type things which will mean they can think more for themselves while training them in the future.

Things like sit I might not use a clicker initially but to polish up and get faster or straighter sits etc I will use the clicker as it is easier to communicate what you want exactly, eg if the dog knows how to sit and you want a faster sit then only reward the faster sits and the sits dog gradually get faster and faster.

A great book for someone wanting to learn how to clicker train is the clicker training foundation book here - http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/acatalog/bookvid.html - you can also get this as an e-book in the site mentioned above by wingus.

Edited February 5, 2008 by helen

[Guest doggydo]

I would love to try this clicker training. Never heard of it.

[Blue Fox 001]

I use both clicker training and reward based training without the clicker. I think the more complex a behaviour is the more likely I am to use a clicker and find it great for tricks. I also like to use the clicker for a while while a dog is young so it is ingrained in their brain and do some more 'thinking' type things which will mean they can think more for themselves while training them in the future.

Things like sit I might not use a clicker initially but to polish up and get faster or straighter sits etc I will use the clicker as it is easier to communicate what you want exactly, eg if the dog knows how to sit and you want a faster sit then only reward the faster sits and the sits dog gradually get faster and faster.

A great book for someone wanting to learn how to clicker train is the clicker training foundation book here - http://www.learningaboutdogs.com/acatalog/bookvid.html - you can also get this as an e-book in the site mentioned above by wingus.

Thanks for that Helen, I imagine I will do a bit of both but will give the clicker a real shot with the next one. I am quite looking forward to having a go with it.

[peaceful]

"The other end of the leash" is also very good theory based book about dog behaviour.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Miffy