stormie Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 I definately know what you mean! When we got our golden, she was our first dog and we were very new the the doggy thing. She was raised on pedigree puppy and has really only had supermarket brands her whole life, with table scraps here and there. Now that I have easy access to it, I have her on a better quality senior food, but she has been a really healthy dog her whole life and has just reached 14yo!! A good friend of mine has a dane puppy born the day after Orbit. They have been raising this pup on the prey model diet since she was 8wks old which I am sure would far exceed the 25% protein thing... She's just gone 6months and everything is growing normal and soundly. Food companies etc seem to be constantly coming up with new information which says we need to be feeding this and that for our pets. Companies are even bringing out 'neutured cat' foods saying they are designed for desexed male cats! Makes me wonder what their adult maintenance cat diet is good for then! I think it's great we are getting more and more options for feeding here in australia, but with all the information out there, and some of it conflicting, it can be really hard to know exactly what to feed! I am constantly going back to our vet text books to read things about diet and nutrition, as they are based on real studies. However then I am constantly reading that apparently vets have no idea on animal nutrition, so that would mean their text books/uni notes are all wrong! So if the information the vets have is wrong, that would mean what the uni is teaching is wrong, and what the pet food companies tell us is wrong! So who exactly is right?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaegertheweim Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 sorry to butt in here but FTPO, was it the regular (purple bag) or holistic (green bag) of large breed puppy EP that you were using? and to the other large/giant breed owners.. when is the suggested age to switch to adult food? I always hear differing views.. some say 8 months, others say 18 months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 jaeger - i think its just generally a matter of when the dog has reached maturity. eg I will keep Orbit on a growth food till he's about 18-24months as that roughly when he will stop growing. Smaller breeds like retrievers etc would probably finish their growing younger than this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaves Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 WHen it comes to raw the protein is higher but you dont have the carbs and cereals added in which is why i think the growth is slow and steady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 FTPO: I totally know what you mean. I find the commercial ploys very confusing and slightly irritating as they always make you feel that until today you didn't know anything about dog nutrition but now with their amazing discoveries it's all going to change. Stormie: I always wonder how much vets actually know about the canine nutrition. I was talking to my friend who is a vet and she admitted she didn't know much about studies showing that corn or wheat can cause problems in dogs: things that are published in scientific papers that somehow didn't make it to the vet textbooks. I actually am a postodc doing research about cholesterol-lipids interactions so I do end up reading heaps of stuff about fats in diets etc.. so I end up knowing more than my vet friend who thinks that Eukanuba is the best dog food you can get. She is a great person and a great vet but it just shows that maybe the vet education is not up to date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 WHen it comes to raw the protein is higher but you dont have the carbs and cereals added in which is why i think the growth is slow and steady. Following that logic all the grain free (low carb) dry foods that are high in protein should be OK for puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 sorry to butt in here but FTPO, was it the regular (purple bag) or holistic (green bag) of large breed puppy EP that you were using?and to the other large/giant breed owners.. when is the suggested age to switch to adult food? I always hear differing views.. some say 8 months, others say 18 months I was only able to sore the purple bag here in qld. Then I changed him over to EP Duck because he is suffering big time with allergies and did that at 11 mths. There is so much conflicting information about what age is appropriate to change them n to Adult food and I have even heard others continuing puppy food for years and years! I guess as the skin issues with Benson were getting more problematic I decided that his development was nearing an end at that it was best to try to help his itching more so. Stormie - I am with you 110% it's like a bl**dy mine field when you are trying to understand which literature is correct and what is best ... *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaegertheweim Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 ah I see. How are his allergies doing? any improvements since switching over? After searching high and low myself for the green bag up here (I was even told by the EP rep that it wasnt imported into Aust yet), I managed to find a pet store who is able to specially order it in for me. Now the next question is how long I will keep my wei on it for.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I emailed the Natural Pet Store last night about Orijen and Deborah was ever so kind to response really promptly and I hope she is not upset by this, but here is a little bit of her email to me. This is making sense to me - you know!?!? "From my understanding, it is not the high protein levels which may cause problems, it is the calcium/phosphorus ratios and the calorie levels. I was also told that it is the amount of ash in the product which can be an issue as ash contains calcium, phosphorus and other minerals. High ash levels indicate the amount of bone that is in the product and the quality of the pet food. Better quality meats produce less ash. Orijen uses fresh deboned meats so there is less ash content. A lot of pet foods don’t list the % of ash, however the Orijen ash levels are around 6.5%-7% which is quite low. Orijen contains the correct calcium and phosphorus levels to maintain overall health." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) FTPO: I totally know what you mean. I find the commercial ploys very confusing and slightly irritating as they always make you feel that until today you didn't know anything about dog nutrition but now with their amazing discoveries it's all going to change.Stormie: I always wonder how much vets actually know about the canine nutrition. I was talking to my friend who is a vet and she admitted she didn't know much about studies showing that corn or wheat can cause problems in dogs: things that are published in scientific papers that somehow didn't make it to the vet textbooks. I actually am a postodc doing research about cholesterol-lipids interactions so I do end up reading heaps of stuff about fats in diets etc.. so I end up knowing more than my vet friend who thinks that Eukanuba is the best dog food you can get. She is a great person and a great vet but it just shows that maybe the vet education is not up to date? Interesting. Just speaking to my vets about this now, he was saying that he was well aware of wheat being an issue but heard much regarding corn just yet. Our theory though is that wheat used to be the main grain used in foods, particularly supermarket brands, so because dogs were being exposed to it, they were suseptable to developing allergies. Perhaps now with the use of corn in most foods, that is why there is a higher incidence of problems with corn. I wonder if something such as oatmeal or barley was to eventually be used more due to issues with corn and wheat, would we start seeing dogs with issues with these also? I guess the other thing is, generally, for most dogs, corn and wheat probably aren't an issue. I think its when there are problems that its important for vets to recognise that it could be the diet and look for an appropriate elimination diet Edited February 20, 2008 by stormie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 WHen it comes to raw the protein is higher but you dont have the carbs and cereals added in which is why i think the growth is slow and steady. Following that logic all the grain free (low carb) dry foods that are high in protein should be OK for puppies. I think that is right too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 FTPO: I totally know what you mean. I find the commercial ploys very confusing and slightly irritating as they always make you feel that until today you didn't know anything about dog nutrition but now with their amazing discoveries it's all going to change.Stormie: I always wonder how much vets actually know about the canine nutrition. I was talking to my friend who is a vet and she admitted she didn't know much about studies showing that corn or wheat can cause problems in dogs: things that are published in scientific papers that somehow didn't make it to the vet textbooks. I actually am a postodc doing research about cholesterol-lipids interactions so I do end up reading heaps of stuff about fats in diets etc.. so I end up knowing more than my vet friend who thinks that Eukanuba is the best dog food you can get. She is a great person and a great vet but it just shows that maybe the vet education is not up to date? Interesting. Just speaking to my vets about this now, he was saying that he was well aware of wheat being an issue but heard much regarding corn just yet. Our theory though is that wheat used to be the main grain used in foods, particularly supermarket brands, so because dogs were being exposed to it, they were suseptable to developing allergies. Perhaps now with the use of corn in most foods, that is why there is a higher incidence of problems with corn. I wonder if something such as oatmeal or barley was to eventually be used more due to issues with corn and wheat, would we start seeing dogs with issues with these also? This is a very good point. I think there is still a lot of research to be done to really determine what's the ideal diet for dogs. Esp the long term effects of all of these diets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First Time Puppy Owner Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 ah I see. How are his allergies doing? any improvements since switching over?After searching high and low myself for the green bag up here (I was even told by the EP rep that it wasnt imported into Aust yet), I managed to find a pet store who is able to specially order it in for me. Now the next question is how long I will keep my wei on it for.... Well the information I read on EP Duck was about 60 days to see change yet I do know if I will actually get to see assistance from the food specifically as Benson and i have been to see a homeopathic vet and he is giving him a mixture to try to fix his immune system. So regardless at this point in time I kind of am at the point with his allergies that I don't care what is the fix but i just want my baby all better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 WHen it comes to raw the protein is higher but you dont have the carbs and cereals added in which is why i think the growth is slow and steady. Following that logic all the grain free (low carb) dry foods that are high in protein should be OK for puppies. Not all protein was created equally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 ah I see. How are his allergies doing? any improvements since switching over?After searching high and low myself for the green bag up here (I was even told by the EP rep that it wasnt imported into Aust yet), I managed to find a pet store who is able to specially order it in for me. Now the next question is how long I will keep my wei on it for.... Well the information I read on EP Duck was about 60 days to see change yet I do know if I will actually get to see assistance from the food specifically as Benson and i have been to see a homeopathic vet and he is giving him a mixture to try to fix his immune system. So regardless at this point in time I kind of am at the point with his allergies that I don't care what is the fix but i just want my baby all better! With these puppy/adult issues I always wonder: wolves eat the same stuff regardless if they are young or old. I doubt they say: "you lilttle ones you need more calcium have this bit". I sort of eases my mind a little and just makes me realize one more time how little we know about all this diet thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 Ah FTPO you have allergy problems too? Orb has been itchy since the day he came home to me at 10wks. It's really frustrating isnt it... Have you tried the Eukanuba FP? the ingredients aren't bad and its recommended by the specialists over the Hills Z/D as an elimination diet. Generally the food trial has to go for about 12 weeks to know if it works... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 WHen it comes to raw the protein is higher but you dont have the carbs and cereals added in which is why i think the growth is slow and steady. Following that logic all the grain free (low carb) dry foods that are high in protein should be OK for puppies. Not all protein was created equally What do you mean by that? I do agree that proteins from grains are very different than the ones from meat. But if you compare raw diet (let's say 80% RMB) and dry grainless food (70% meat) we still have the same proteins coming from meat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 20, 2008 Author Share Posted February 20, 2008 ah I see. How are his allergies doing? any improvements since switching over?After searching high and low myself for the green bag up here (I was even told by the EP rep that it wasnt imported into Aust yet), I managed to find a pet store who is able to specially order it in for me. Now the next question is how long I will keep my wei on it for.... Well the information I read on EP Duck was about 60 days to see change yet I do know if I will actually get to see assistance from the food specifically as Benson and i have been to see a homeopathic vet and he is giving him a mixture to try to fix his immune system. So regardless at this point in time I kind of am at the point with his allergies that I don't care what is the fix but i just want my baby all better! With these puppy/adult issues I always wonder: wolves eat the same stuff regardless if they are young or old. I doubt they say: "you lilttle ones you need more calcium have this bit". I sort of eases my mind a little and just makes me realize one more time how little we know about all this diet thing. I wonder the same thing! But then I wonder if wolf pups suckle milk for longer? Then I stop and think, well, there are no great danes out in the wild, we created them, and they do grow much faster than wolves for example, so its possible that they have different nutritional requirements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tess32 Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 WHen it comes to raw the protein is higher but you dont have the carbs and cereals added in which is why i think the growth is slow and steady. Following that logic all the grain free (low carb) dry foods that are high in protein should be OK for puppies. Not all protein was created equally What do you mean by that? I do agree that proteins from grains are very different than the ones from meat. But if you compare raw diet (let's say 80% RMB) and dry grainless food (70% meat) we still have the same proteins coming from meat. The way ingredients are written means it's pretty hard to interpret the percentage of protein and what that ends up meaining. I don't think all meat protein sources were created equally either. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cl...p;articleid=702 http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html Protein quality Every protein source contains different levels of amino acids and each protein is different in its ability to be broken down into amino acids. So not all proteins are created equal. Some are better for pets than others. The ability of a protein to be used by the body and its amount of usable amino acids is summarized as protein quality (biological value). Egg has the highest biological value and sets the standard for which other proteins are judged. Egg has a biological value of 100. Fish meal and milk are close behind with a value of 92. Beef is around 78 and soybean meal is 67. Meat and bone meal and wheat are around 50 and corn is 45. Things like hair and feathers would be very high in protein but would be down at the bottom of the list for biological value. The actual composition of individual proteins as well as the utilization of amino acids is very detailed and beyond the scope of this article, but in summary, we see that all proteins are not created equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laffi Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 WHen it comes to raw the protein is higher but you dont have the carbs and cereals added in which is why i think the growth is slow and steady. Following that logic all the grain free (low carb) dry foods that are high in protein should be OK for puppies. Not all protein was created equally What do you mean by that? I do agree that proteins from grains are very different than the ones from meat. But if you compare raw diet (let's say 80% RMB) and dry grainless food (70% meat) we still have the same proteins coming from meat. The way ingredients are written means it's pretty hard to interpret the percentage of protein and what that ends up meaining. I don't think all meat protein sources were created equally either. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cl...p;articleid=702 http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/protein.html Protein quality Every protein source contains different levels of amino acids and each protein is different in its ability to be broken down into amino acids. So not all proteins are created equal. Some are better for pets than others. The ability of a protein to be used by the body and its amount of usable amino acids is summarized as protein quality (biological value). Egg has the highest biological value and sets the standard for which other proteins are judged. Egg has a biological value of 100. Fish meal and milk are close behind with a value of 92. Beef is around 78 and soybean meal is 67. Meat and bone meal and wheat are around 50 and corn is 45. Things like hair and feathers would be very high in protein but would be down at the bottom of the list for biological value. The actual composition of individual proteins as well as the utilization of amino acids is very detailed and beyond the scope of this article, but in summary, we see that all proteins are not created equal. Sure, I understand. But are you saying there is a difference between raw chicken protein and dry food chicken protein? (apart from the fact that one is processed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now