zayda_asher Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) Yeah we're rinsing daily which helps to some extent, but definately not enough to be able to with hold cortisone. I might try some chlorhex too - malaseb and pyohex dry him right out which ends up making him more itchy. Antihistamines don't seem to be doing anything which really sucks, got a couple more to try though. Which did you have the most success with? Thankfully he doesnt get ear infections which is so good, but I think he makes up for it with the rest of his body being insanely itchy. We've done the eliminations trials so now it's just a matter of being able to test. Sooo frustration! What shampoo do you use on him now? A milder one would be fine as long as it works for you guys! Also we use a conditioner as well too because sometimes our guys will dry out when we have to up baths when they react, so we use the aloveen conditioner too. Some dogs respond really poorly to anithistamines unfortunately: what dosages are you using? We've had times where we've dose 3 x daily with 25mg phenergan, so there's certainly room to explore much higher doses sometimes.. I find the non-drowsy ones don't work anywhere near as well... Clorpheniramine, Pehenergan and Polaramine have all worked well for us (they will build a tolerance with long term use)... The resichlor is a god send... as is the lamisil. What sort of infection does he get on his skin? I have some other things that I use too depending on the thing... And don't get me wrong, Zayda had messy arm pits, terrible mouth and a big patch on her head... she was missing fur everywhere (also had generalised Demodex) and couldn't put on weight from the food allergies... bad yeast infections... so it wasn't all roses and wine... but we kept to a level we could live with to do the skin testing... So it wasn't a walk in the park... but we lived! Edited December 30, 2008 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 What shampoo do you use on him now? A milder one would be fine as long as it works for you guys! Also we use a conditioner as well too because sometimes our guys will dry out when we have to up baths when they react, so we use the aloveen conditioner too. For my daily rinse I'm actually using an all natural goatsmilk soap. It has no frangrances or anything like that added to it and it's really good on his skin. If/when his skin flares up then I'll give him a pyohex wash and use Alpha Kerry oil after to help with the dry skin. Some dogs respond really poorly to anithistamines unfortunately: what dosages are you using? We've had times where we've dose 3 x daily with 25mg phenergan, so there's certainly room to explore much higher doses sometimes.. I find the non-drowsy ones don't work anywhere near as well... Clorpheniramine, Pehenergan and Polaramine have all worked well for us (they will build a tolerance with long term use)... I've only tried the chlorpheniramine from that list - the rest have all been the non drowsys like claratyne, telfast, zyrtec etc. And i've just been using the recommended dose - will definately up them and see how we go! The resichlor is a god send... as is the lamisil. What sort of infection does he get on his skin? I have some other things that I use too depending on the thing... He mainly just gets staph infections and thankfully it's not too bad. This is only our second season (i got him in october) so it's going to be interesting to see how we go through this. He's a bit of a mess at the moment actually and has quite a few pustules so have got him on antibiotics to help with that. Have not tried the resichlor, but I think it's the same as the Pyohex lotion which I use and find it great for helping areas like in between toes when its humid. Not used lamisil - you used that in a similar way? And don't get me wrong, Zayda has messy arm pits, terrible mouth and a big patch on her head... she was missing fur everywhere (also had generalised Demodex) and couldn't put on weight from the food allergies... bad yeast infections... so it wasn't all roses and wine... but we kept to a level we could live with to do the skin testing... So it wasn't a walk in the park... but we lived! Wow it sounds like you've been through some really tough times! Good on you for sticking it out!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 For my daily rinse I'm actually using an all natural goatsmilk soap. It has no frangrances or anything like that added to it and it's really good on his skin. If/when his skin flares up then I'll give him a pyohex wash and use Alpha Kerry oil after to help with the dry skin. That sounds like a good routine... Question though: did you test goatsmilk when you did elimination? Even though he's not eating it he could still be reacting to the protein... I've only tried the chlorpheniramine from that list - the rest have all been the non drowsys like claratyne, telfast, zyrtec etc. And i've just been using the recommended dose - will definately up them and see how we go! Are you working with a Derm or just a GP vet? They should be stepping you though this antihistamine trial... He mainly just gets staph infections and thankfully it's not too bad. Ok, Pau D'arco might work for him then... you can get it in tablet form or tea (and make a rinse)... 1000mg a day may help when he has an out break. Do a bit of research on it... it is a blood thinner so be aware of that also. Are you on Salmon oil? If not, why not?? That's the other thing that helps immensely to bring the inflammation under control in the skin... Or you can try the EPO of Borage oil. The grape fruit seed extract rinse I mentioned before may also help. And also the olive leaf extract (don't give with antibiotics though, it will stop them from working). Have not tried the resichlor, but I think it's the same as the Pyohex lotion which I use and find it great for helping areas like in between toes when its humid.Not used lamisil - you used that in a similar way? I think the resichlor would be milder on him than the pyohex lotion though so not as irritating for daily use - would have to check that with your vet though... Yep. lamisil used similarly - our derms have been having great results and there's a spray that a lot of people and dogs find easier in application. Wow it sounds like you've been through some really tough times! Good on you for sticking it out!! Yeah, twice over! <sigh> Gotta love em but! If you search my user name and "allergies" I think there's some photos of Zayda in a thread from bad times... We've had reactions to treatments, hives (I came home to Zayda covered in half golf balls all over her the first time we had hives - looked liked she'd been mutated!!! Scary!), every bacteria, sudden and violent out breaks... the whole works and jerks!! But what can you do? Have to give them all the best and damn to the money... they're worth it! And when you have it under control they are happy kids! :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) I didn't test the goatsmilk, but he's never had/touched it up till now and he doesn't react to it so I'm happy it's safe. I've only started using it in the last month or two since we've started on the daily rinses. I haven't been to the Dermatologist yet, but my vet is quite good friends with her and has been giving us the list of things we need to do/eliminate before we go ahead and test (bribed with wine ) . She's not a big user of antihistamines and hasn't had much success with them, but admits they're worth a try, so at the moment we're just going through them one by one. Admittedly my vets haven't really done much work with all the different ones out there as they've never really had any success with them, but they are keen to see how we go with Orbit. Not on salmon oil, just using an Omega 3, 6 and 9 supplement. When he was younger we tried him on a salmon and potato diet and he was quite bad on that - urticaria all over his back so I have been avoiding salmon! Tried the EPO too - didn't help. Will looks into the difference between the resichlor and pyohex - I mainly use it on pustules or between his toes and haven't had a problem with it - in fact it's been great for clearing them up. Will definately look into the other things you mentioned! Thanks!! Its such a sucky thing huh. At first we thought it was just going to be scabies seeing he came from a scrubby desert area and it just seemed more likely with his age. Plus we have not seen atopy in such a young dog before! I'm so lucky I get my tests/meds for cost price, I honestly don't know how I'd cope if I didn't! Mind you I've spent a tonne of money on buying all sorts of different things from here and there, but like you said, what else can you do. Edited October 24, 2008 by stormie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I didn't test the goatsmilk, but he's never had/touched it up till now and he doesn't react to it so I'm happy it's safe. I've only started using it in the last month or two since we've started on the daily rinses. How old is he? If he's young still I'd be very wary of adding new things whilst he is potentially still developing allergies... you could just be adding more things to the list that he will end up allergic to and limit your options!! Asher is allergic to tea tree because of skin products and I know a dog who is allergic to oatmeal because of skin products... I haven't been to the Dermatologist yet, but my vet is quite good friends with her and has been giving us the list of things we need to do/eliminate before we go ahead and test Hmm, personally I wouldn't be satisfied with that... second hand info through someone that doesn't know the intricacies is just not as good.. good recipe for confusion. Have you done an elimination diet or not then? And if you are eliminating and clearing now, she wont see his full symptom pattern which gives important clues... She's not a big user of antihistamines and hasn't had much success with them, but admits they're worth a try, so at the moment we're just going through them one by one. I think I'd be concerned with this too... many dogs don't do well with antihists, but many do and a Derm should see both and know how to trial appropriately, what ones would work better with "hard cases" etc. They should be keeping up with modern research on such things. I guess I'm just used to my derm who is a "the more things we have in the arsenal to try, the better!" kind of person, in other words because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it wont work for someone else.. why limit yourself? Admittedly my vets haven't really done much work with all the different ones out there as they've never really had any success with them, but they are keen to see how we go with Orbit But if they haven't really researched them and keep using the same "game plan" regardless of the dog, regardless of dosage size etc. they will probably continue to not have successes... its not a "one size fits all" thing... I don't mean to sound harsh, sorry if I do. Also often a dog in Orbit's condition may be hard to see the full effect of the anithists with because they are so over threshold, so find out what they are allergic to, get their environment cleared and the antihists can work more effectively... Not on salmon oil, just using an Omega 3, 6 and 9 supplement. When he was younger we tried him on a salmon and potato diet and he was quite bad on that - urticaria all over his back so I have been avoiding salmon! Tried the EPO too - didn't help. Omega 6 is already high in most diets and it causes inflammation so is good to avoid extras, some people find EPO doesn't work for them for this reason... What's the supplement you're using made of? Many dogs react to flax and alfalfa with chronic itching regardless of allergies or not - just seems to be something many don't tolerate. Try the Borage oil (star flower) then... its the other one found to be very good with allergies. What dose are you using - remember: 1000mg per 5 kilos of body weight for therapeutic dose. Have you done elimination diet: remember if you haven't specifically tested salmon and had a reaction it may not have been the salmon, but the potato or any of the other things in that diet. Will looks into the difference between the resichlor and pyohex - I mainly use it on pustules or between his toes and haven't had a problem with it - in fact it's been great for clearing them up. If it works it works ! Just thought I'd mention it as I know the pyohex is very strong shampoo... Will definately look into the other things you mentioned! Thanks!! No worries! Good luck! :cool: Yep, it does suck... but those are the breaks hey? I always say: I can laugh or cry, so I'll choose laugh (although there's been a fair share of tears too lol)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 (edited) Oh and that's 1000mg containing EPA (the fatty acid) per 5 kilos and in plant based products the body had to convert ALA (from memory) to EPA, so often a higher dose is needed on plant based omega 3s... Oh, yep... found a link: http://womenshealth.com/health-library/71-...n-flax-seed-oil Edited October 24, 2008 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Up until recently I've only ever really used the Pyohex to wash him, but I'm not going to use that every day. The goatsmilk soap is really mild and he doesn't have a reaction to it, so i'm happy with using that daily for his pollen rinse. With regards to Derm, I trust her completely. She's incredibly well respected in Australia. She basically gave us a run down of all the things they would eliminate with their clients first, like scabies, dermataphytes, food allergies etc etc. I have spoken to her about him at an Atopy seminar we went to through work. Both my derm and another were there speaking about atopy and giving advice for vets on how to run through the initial steps with clients etc. She told us to try the antihistamines but that she hasn't had much luck. The other dermatologist that was at the seminar had had more success with them, but they both agreed that they should be tried. I have done a food elimination and its not a food allergy. We have also ruled out parasites, infection and dermataphytes. We have done skin biopsies too just cause I can. We have discussed this whole process and outcomes with Derm and are now just waiting for a period by which we can reduce his cortisone enough to test. I'm still contemplating the Heska Allercept blood test over the intra dermal, due to the less time of cortisone with-holding needed, plus also the reduction of risk of creating more allergies to the injection of the different allergens. He's now on a raw diet now that we've trialled. We know he has atopy. We've trialled him by keeping him inside and his symptoms reduce. Plus the fact that his symptoms are worse throughout the typical pollen season is another indicator. It's just a matter of finding out which pollens specifically now. I'm happy with my vets current treatment. He is at work with me every day so he gets a check up every day and there are 3 of them who are able to see his progression/decline. They know everytime we try a new antihistamine and keep watch for changes and improvements. We do regular skin tapes as well to keep an eye on bacteria etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I've heard of people using the Heska ELISA as a ground point and getting the dog under better control, then doing the intradermal later for a more precise picture if needed... so that may always be an option too... If you have people you are working with that you trust, then that's great... its the most important thing to trust your health profs and that's a personal thing and I apologize if I gave offense So did he come up allergic to any foods in the elimination? Did you retrial the salmon? I'm just not sure why you link the salmon to the hives if you think there's no food allergies (which is what I think you mean when you say "we know its not food allergy"), or did you mean we know he has food allergies, but that's not what we're dealing with now... Sorry... getting tired now, long day and I may just be confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I've heard of people using the Heska ELISA as a ground point and getting the dog under better control, then doing the intradermal later for a more precise picture if needed... so that may always be an option too... If you have people you are working with that you trust, then that's great... its the most important thing to trust your health profs and that's a personal thing and I apologize if I gave offense So did he come up allergic to any foods in the elimination? Did you retrial the salmon? I'm just not sure why you link the salmon to the hives if you think there's no food allergies (which is what I think you mean when you say "we know its not food allergy"), or did you mean we know he has food allergies, but that's not what we're dealing with now... Sorry... getting tired now, long day and I may just be confused :cool: That's ok, I was probably confused too . When we put him on the novel diet, there was zero change in his pruritis. That's what I mean about knowing his chronic scratching is not food related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenz0r Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 thanks zayda_asher.. you really are a wealth of information! he is 5 months old... is puppy staph still a possibility? these are the lumps that he has on his back legs, there is more around the other side of his leg and on the other leg as well.... they start of with pus but then just stay pink, as in this pic. he doesnt seem to be as itchy anymore since a week's constant use of Cortavance spray that finished on Sunday but these lumps still persist... should i get him back on antibiotics? thanks again really appreciate your advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Hmmmm 5mnts might be a bit old for "puppy staph", you'd have to check with your vet, or if you do a google you can probably find the info... Its def Staph infection, so just a matter of why he got it then... how long was he on the antibiotics for? Typically staph needs a 30day course at least to get it under control... anything under that will show improvement until the course is stopped... Like I said: if it becomes persistent or he gets them regularly then you need to start looking at other things. Does he itch a lot or any of the other symptoms I mentioned before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quickasyoucan Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Because your pup is so young it could be what they commonly refer to as "puppy staph" (Which is the bacterial folliculitis your vet mentioned) - sometimes they have staph outbreaks as their immune system is growing and developing... so its not something I would worry about yet... If it clears up and never comes back that's probably what it was. So fingers crossed that's all it is for you! If it persists or reappears and becomes an issue when he is older then its something to worry about... Staph lives on all our skin, but sometimes things go out of whack and it over grows and causes issues... Allergies is one cause... QAYC: I'm still working on getting that pic for you!! Its hard to photograph! Cheers, I tried to photograph mine too but I only have a camera phone and resolution is not that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 That's ok, I was probably confused too . When we put him on the novel diet, there was zero change in his pruritis. That's what I mean about knowing his chronic scratching is not food related. So if there was no change on elimination and probably not food allergies then maybe the salmon wasn't the cause of his hives, but just a coincidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 That's ok, I was probably confused too . When we put him on the novel diet, there was zero change in his pruritis. That's what I mean about knowing his chronic scratching is not food related. So if there was no change on elimination and probably not food allergies then maybe the salmon wasn't the cause of his hives, but just a coincidence... Yeah I guess that's true, and could also have been any number of things that were in the food. Was just strange how his skin flared right up a day after starting the food and went down a day or so after getting him off it. Have just started on Phenergan and so far it looks to be having a good effect! Plus we're going to pay our Derm a visit when we can get an appointment just to make sure we're still on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Yeah I guess that's true, and could also have been any number of things that were in the food. Was just strange how his skin flared right up a day after starting the food and went down a day or so after getting him off it. Have just started on Phenergan and so far it looks to be having a good effect! Plus we're going to pay our Derm a visit when we can get an appointment just to make sure we're still on the right track. It could be something in the food, there's always a heap of stuff in those diets.... or a total coincidence too: I've seen that happen before... looks like it was definitely one thing, but you get them settled and retrial and it wasn't at all... Once you have the atopy sorted (as that seems the big thing) then maybe you can retrial and see Glad the phenergan seems to be helping! That's great for you... and good luck with getting to the Derm... let us know how you go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenz0r Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 he was on the antibiotics for a week - they didnt really seem to cure any of the spots he also had an allergic itchy rash on his tummy, armpits and inside of his ear that was brought under control by the Cortavance, and he doesnt seem to be itching as much now but the lumps on his legs still remain?? i will take him back to the vet for another look. thanks heaps!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 One week for Staph is def not enough! What made them think "allergic rash"... if they do think allergies, then you need to start looking into that... good luck with him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenz0r Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 at the time when he had the itchy rash, it looked like 2 completely separate skin conditions at the same tkime - the lumps, as in the pic i posted and then he had the non-raised blotchy itchy rash on his tummy and everywhere else... but that one cleared up with the spray... thanks heaps i will definitely look into it when i have the cash.. have car insurance bill to pay first unfortunately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted October 28, 2008 Share Posted October 28, 2008 It could've been separate, or related... Often the skin becomes very inflamed and rashy looking as the pimples break out... Its worth doing a bit of a google and reading up on allergies in dogs... there's some good info out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basilsmum Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Hi Everyone, My dog has had skin problems/allergies for the last 8 years and was on Polaramine, Phenergan and Prednisone as well as all sorts of lotions and creams at different times over that period but nothing really helped him. About 6 months ago I came across a product called Vetalogica Omegaderm at my local chemist and after 3 weeks of taking the tablets he was a totally different dog. I took him back to the vet to show him and he couldn't believe the difference. He doesn't scratch or chew himself anymore and his skin is no longer flouro pink. I had a look on their website and they have a store locater to see where your nearest stockist is. Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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