zayda_asher Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Before reading the rest, please bear in mind that I've a terrible memory and I asked her could I write stuff down but she said she'd give me a report, which she did, but it doesn't cover everything that we talked about. Meh. No worries... my brain is shot these days too!! She said fleas and contact allergies based on where the reactions were [fleas = backend, contact = sides and flanks]. Certainly that is where you tend to see fleas, and I suppose she says those spots for contact allergies because a dog would lie on those areas more I suppose... but Neck, shoulders and sides are all spots my dogs itch with atopy... and contact allergies will be where ever there is contact so with Asher's it tends to be neck / back / ears because of the products involved, or all over if its a shampoo or in his mucosal linings in his mouth (where he sensitised to his oral immunotherapy), or on his feet when he has reacted to some lawn chemicals... so really they can be anywhere... It's altogether possible I made that bit up though again I often wonder if I do this myself! I asked about the cytology test and she said all her infections had scabbed over and were healing so it wouldn't pick up the bacteria that needed testing. Interesting... we've had Asher done when he is all scabby... but maybe his infections were worse than Trixie's and, even though scabby, there were more open sores there too... I would've still thought they could test to see if there was bacteria on the skin... I know we've had it run to be sure and the result has been negative, so its not black and white I don't think... Of course I'm not a vet either and can only go on my own experiences with this stuff... The elimination diet and atopia were mentioned as last resorts really. I don't think she felt Trixie was that bad. Cool... just seems weird to raise it as a possibility if its not really a possibility if you know what I mean! :D I think I should print out your reply and bring it with me to my next visit! There's a lot to question by the looks of things!! Its certainly worth going armed with a list of questions / things to ask about... I very rarely go to out appointments with out a sheet of questions to help jog my poor brain!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 (edited) Hey Stormie, any news on Orbit's HESKA results? Fingers crossed for you they come soon! Zayda has been pretty good, but we had a reaction yesterday with her third dose of ASIT (0.4ml on the lowest dose vial). She had an injection site lump on her left shoulder, probably about the size of a bean. We've been doing each vial in the same shoulder each time so we know which is causing the issues if it continues. She was also perhaps a bit more sooky than normal (following me around a bit) and was also licking her lips some as she does when she is feeling ill (although she also did this last night too so it may be general allergy reaction and not the vaccine). And also some lethargy... The lump concerns me as this is the reaction we were getting when we took her off her alternaria vaccine, along with urticaria. No urticaria this time so far, although the lump is also not anywhere near as big as the ones we had with the alternaria ASIT (that was at full strength when we had those reactions). That's why we went to oral dosing with the alternaria... So I canceled our arvo client as I didn't think it was fair to expect her to work on the back of a reaction and I'm waiting to hear from the Derm... Today she is fine... lump has gone and she is up and happy... so have to see what we do now... ETA: and we've also been colitis-ish since the testing... could just be from the extreme reaction to the intradermal testing though, have to check what our poops are like today... Edited December 12, 2008 by zayda_asher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniMum Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Hi Zayda Asher, I hope things settle down for Zayda with her colitis. I am rather new to this forum, but it seems like you and your guys have had a hard time of it. Hi Ruthless, Hope things get sorted out for you - it can be hard not know what sets the allergies off. (and your girl is so gorgeous, her sad eyes just emphasise it) I have got over the shock of seeing so many positives on the intradermal test results a little, and now feel that at least we have something - make that lots of things- to work on. (pretty similar to when my son was diagnosed with a disability). My OH is taking TD to the derm on Friday (huge and crazy work committtments at the moment) and if his ear has cleared up enough, we can start looking at treating the atopy. Be intereting to see what he suggests. ETA: minimal chemicals are good for allergy dogs... effects their immune system and they can also sensitise to them... its worth reading up on the different chems too and seeing what else they treat, for example some heartwormers do cover other worms etc. Obviously area and proliferation of fleas or whatever will effect what you can and can't do.. Thank so much for the invaluable information and support Zayda Asher. It really does make such a difference knowing there is advise and understanding. I agree entirely about minimisation of chemicals. Unfortunately neem and lavender is just not enough although we did try it for a while. We try to use more natural approaches whenever we can for ourselves, our garden etc, so it seemed the "normal" approach for TD as well when he joined our family - we only went with the chemicals when that didn't work. Maybe living on the edge of a forest is a factor here, and I am sure the climate is as well. Take care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted December 14, 2008 Share Posted December 14, 2008 Hey Stormie, any news on Orbit's HESKA results? Fingers crossed for you they come soon! Zayda has been pretty good, but we had a reaction yesterday with her third dose of ASIT (0.4ml on the lowest dose vial). She had an injection site lump on her left shoulder, probably about the size of a bean. We've been doing each vial in the same shoulder each time so we know which is causing the issues if it continues. She was also perhaps a bit more sooky than normal (following me around a bit) and was also licking her lips some as she does when she is feeling ill (although she also did this last night too so it may be general allergy reaction and not the vaccine). And also some lethargy... The lump concerns me as this is the reaction we were getting when we took her off her alternaria vaccine, along with urticaria. No urticaria this time so far, although the lump is also not anywhere near as big as the ones we had with the alternaria ASIT (that was at full strength when we had those reactions). That's why we went to oral dosing with the alternaria... So I canceled our arvo client as I didn't think it was fair to expect her to work on the back of a reaction and I'm waiting to hear from the Derm... Today she is fine... lump has gone and she is up and happy... so have to see what we do now... ETA: and we've also been colitis-ish since the testing... could just be from the extreme reaction to the intradermal testing though, have to check what our poops are like today... Still waiting on the HESKA results. I might give the lab a call today or tomorrow if we've not heard anything, just to make sure they actually got it!! Poor Zayder.. I have heard of both people and animals feeling off from the injections, and have offered wondered how it makes them feel after having the intradermals done too. Overall, how would you rate the success of the desens. inj's? I've not had any experience with them - do you think it makes a difference as to where they come from and who makes them up? Or is there just the one place that makes them that everyone goes to? haha hope I'm making sense! The labs that offer the blood tests also offer the injections, but I was planning to leave them up to the Derm.. I just wanna make sure i do it all right!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) Well, Heska results are in.... according to them, Orbit showed no or minimal levels of allergen specific IgE. All very strange seeing both tests look for IgE yet one came back with positives and another with nothing. But according to gribbles, they dont recommend immunotherapy! So frustrating... The results say it may be due to recent administration of cortisone, which if that's true, we will not be happy as we were confidently told there is no need to withhold. Definately not what I was expecting... eta: what little readings we did get on the Heska, does match up pretty well with the positives we got with the SPOT test though. Edited December 18, 2008 by stormie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Hi Zayda Asher,I hope things settle down for Zayda with her colitis. I am rather new to this forum, but it seems like you and your guys have had a hard time of it. Thanks... She is settling down with the colitis now... but we are more itchy: so we're trying borage oil for EFAs seeing we had to go off our regulars for the elimination diet... Also I think the immunotherapy is causing some itching now too as we are on to the next strength vial.. Allergy dogs tend to go in cycles, so you have a good run and then a not so good one... we can start looking at treating the atopy. Be intereting to see what he suggests. Did you get him in? What suggestions were made? Hope you got some good starting ideas... Thank so much for the invaluable information and support Zayda Asher. It really does make such a difference knowing there is advise and understanding. No worries... glad to support and help other people in the same boat who want to do the best for their dogs I agree entirely about minimisation of chemicals. Unfortunately neem and lavender is just not enough although we did try it for a while. We try to use more natural approaches whenever we can for ourselves, our garden etc, so it seemed the "normal" approach for TD as well when he joined our family - we only went with the chemicals when that didn't work. Maybe living on the edge of a forest is a factor here, and I am sure the climate is as well. Climate and area you live in certainly do seem to make a difference... and some dogs seem to be more prone to flea infestation... It is said that dogs in good health / condition will be less attractive to fleas... maybe its one of those old wives tails, but maybe you will see an improvement as you get the allergies under control and get his system functioning better too... Maybe then you can try using other things again! Never hurts to retry stuff when you are in a better / different position to what you were... Take care You too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Well, Heska results are in.... according to them, Orbit showed no or minimal levels of allergen specific IgE. All very strange seeing both tests look for IgE yet one came back with positives and another with nothing. But according to gribbles, they dont recommend immunotherapy! So frustrating... The results say it may be due to recent administration of cortisone, which if that's true, we will not be happy as we were confidently told there is no need to withhold. Definately not what I was expecting... eta: what little readings we did get on the Heska, does match up pretty well with the positives we got with the SPOT test though. Man, that's crap! I really feel for you guys... Have you been able to dig and ask any more questions? I thought that was odd about the withholding when you said it, have you been able to find out about that? Why don't they recommend immunotherapy? That all just seems odd Our derms do everything in house, which is great from the POV of knowing that the person you are dealing with did the testing!! Hope you have some answers soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 We have now posted our first minor questionaire on our website. Its designed to collect info to help us try to see patterns in the issues dogs suffer with We're asking for everyone who has had or who still has a sick dog to give us a few minutes to answer the questions for us. You will need to re do it for each dog and if its something that's happening now you are able to go back and update the info. It comes up as a pop up or a link at the top under survey on the front page of our website. www.mdba.net.au Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 Well, Heska results are in.... according to them, Orbit showed no or minimal levels of allergen specific IgE. All very strange seeing both tests look for IgE yet one came back with positives and another with nothing. But according to gribbles, they dont recommend immunotherapy! So frustrating... The results say it may be due to recent administration of cortisone, which if that's true, we will not be happy as we were confidently told there is no need to withhold. Definately not what I was expecting... eta: what little readings we did get on the Heska, does match up pretty well with the positives we got with the SPOT test though. Man, that's crap! I really feel for you guys... Have you been able to dig and ask any more questions? I thought that was odd about the withholding when you said it, have you been able to find out about that? Why don't they recommend immunotherapy? That all just seems odd :) Our derms do everything in house, which is great from the POV of knowing that the person you are dealing with did the testing!! Hope you have some answers soon... Just gets more frustrating. The Pathologists have now admitted to giving us the wrong information with regards to withholding. The lady we first spoke to who told us not to withhold has admitted to telling us that as apparently that's what she was told. So not sure exactly what's going to happen now, hopefully they'll either refund us or give us a retest. They just didnt recommend immunotherapy based on their results, but there was barely in readings. The highest number we got was 44, and its measured from 1-5000. Had planned to take both results to derm, but might put that on hold until we know exactly what's going to happen with the Heska. The only slightly positive thing is that quite a number of readings >0 we got on Heska, do match the positives we got with SPOT, so I guess that's a start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted December 30, 2008 Share Posted December 30, 2008 Just gets more frustrating. The Pathologists have now admitted to giving us the wrong information with regards to withholding. The lady we first spoke to who told us not to withhold has admitted to telling us that as apparently that's what she was told. So not sure exactly what's going to happen now, hopefully they'll either refund us or give us a retest. Blimey! That's crap... makes me glad my Derms do everything in house!! I hope they are giving you a refund / retest!! They just didnt recommend immunotherapy based on their results, but there was barely in readings. The highest number we got was 44, and its measured from 1-5000. Right, gotcha... Had planned to take both results to derm, but might put that on hold until we know exactly what's going to happen with the Heska. Any news? The only slightly positive thing is that quite a number of readings >0 we got on Heska, do match the positives we got with SPOT, so I guess that's a start! Yeah, it is a start... how painful for you all though!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Hey Stormie... any more news on Orbit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Hey Zayder, No news from Heska yet - just the bill We're not paying it though!! I'm having a bit of an experiment with his diet at the moment. I've done an elimination diet before with no real success, but have just done a second one where i only eliminated chicken, and I re introduced him to it on monday morning. His skin exploded in the early hours of tuesday morning! Bad case of urticaria too. The only thing is, which was silly of me, was that he also didn't get any antihistamines on the monday, so its possible that would have made him slightly worse anyway, but this reaction was extreme. So I'm going to do try it again and keep all variables the same so I know for sure that's what it is. It's so frustrating though. Obviously his problems aren't confined to the one thing, as is quite common in atopic dogs. That is, he has environmental issues and quite possibly food issues, but it's hard trying to narrow them all down as there's just so many things. He has cycles which are often dependant on the weather, so he can be going good, then we'll get a windy day and he'll be bad. So it's hard trying to narrow down foods and looking for subtle changes when this happens anyway. Hope that makes sense!! But otherwise we are doing ok. The phenergan has been great and still is, and means he is coping on less than 0.5mg/kg cortisone every second day which we are happy with. I'm not going to try and do the desensitising during the warmer weather as I just can't wean him off the cortisone any more than I already have. So when it starts to cool down and we can get his dose down, then we'll go for it and hopefully get some success with that. Part of me wants to just do it now but I know how important it is to try and reduce the drugs whilst you are injecting them, for better results, so we will stick out this season and go hard in the 'off season'!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniMum Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Hi Zayda Asher and Stormie - just thought I'd ask how you and your guys were going. Stormie, I'm glad the phenergan is working for Orbit. And I like the sound of just eliminating one thing from the diet, might have to try it that way myself. TDs last visit to the derm ended up being only about his ear again - it was still badly infected, he had to go under GA to have it checked properly. So he needed stronger drugs - $80 for the antibiotics alone. It does seem to have done the trick though, so hopefully now we can move onto the atopy. We are having our next consultation tomorrow (he's been away), and I really want to get going with getting to grips with the allergies. I've spent the summer watching and making notes and so far have noticed that turkey and kangaroo seem to be okay, Aloveen doesn't help and you can't avoid grass. Like you Stormie, we have had good and bad days. Everyone who suffers allergies has had a hard time of it this summer here. As an example, I usually get hayfever OR sinusitis - but this year had a lot of both. So its hard to guess what TD would have been like if it had been a "normal" summer. We have had a bit of rain and a lot of sun, so it is also a good year for weeds. OH and I have just come in from pulling up more wandering jew and turtle plant and are now covered in itches ourselves . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Hi Zayda Asher and Stormie - just thought I'd ask how you and your guys were going. Stormie, I'm glad the phenergan is working for Orbit. And I like the sound of just eliminating one thing from the diet, might have to try it that way myself. If you can do a proper elimination diet with a completely novel protein I'd recommend this over doing one at a time for sure. I had a hard time finding foods that Orbit hadn't previously eaten and even when I did I don't really remember seeing that much of a difference in him. I did the SPOT test which gives food allergy results (though whether or not these are valid is debatable) and so I have just been avoiding them for the sake of it. I have seen him develop urticaria from fish before and so have avoided that, but never seen this from chicken. It's also possible he has developed the chicken allergy since I did the first elimination diet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniMum Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 If you can do a proper elimination diet with a completely novel protein I'd recommend this over doing one at a time for sure. I had a hard time finding foods that Orbit hadn't previously eaten and even when I did I don't really remember seeing that much of a difference in him. I did the SPOT test which gives food allergy results (though whether or not these are valid is debatable) and so I have just been avoiding them for the sake of it. I have seen him develop urticaria from fish before and so have avoided that, but never seen this from chicken. It's also possible he has developed the chicken allergy since I did the first elimination diet. Yes, the food thing is a hard one, isn't it. My derm doesn't seem to think testing for allergies/intoleranced to food is worthwhile, so I guess we are going to do an elimination diet of some kind. Finding the novel protien will be hard for us too - think there might be only rabbit and goat left. (unless we do the crustacean or crocodile thing, but can't even afford to do that for us, much as I would love to ). I believe its quite possible for allergies/intollerances to develop in time. I suddenly became very intollerant of wheat about four years ago. I also sometimes wonder if what the particular animal has been fed on could make a difference with reactions when we feed it our dogs. Did the weather this summer cause a problem for you or Orbit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 If you can do a proper elimination diet with a completely novel protein I'd recommend this over doing one at a time for sure. I had a hard time finding foods that Orbit hadn't previously eaten and even when I did I don't really remember seeing that much of a difference in him. I did the SPOT test which gives food allergy results (though whether or not these are valid is debatable) and so I have just been avoiding them for the sake of it. I have seen him develop urticaria from fish before and so have avoided that, but never seen this from chicken. It's also possible he has developed the chicken allergy since I did the first elimination diet. Yes, the food thing is a hard one, isn't it. My derm doesn't seem to think testing for allergies/intoleranced to food is worthwhile, so I guess we are going to do an elimination diet of some kind. Finding the novel protien will be hard for us too - think there might be only rabbit and goat left. (unless we do the crustacean or crocodile thing, but can't even afford to do that for us, much as I would love to ). I believe its quite possible for allergies/intollerances to develop in time. I suddenly became very intollerant of wheat about four years ago. I also sometimes wonder if what the particular animal has been fed on could make a difference with reactions when we feed it our dogs. Did the weather this summer cause a problem for you or Orbit? Yeah I've never been one to believe in the food allergy blood tests, though the company who runs them will give you tonnes of information and examples of how they are actually valid. I knew Orbit had a fish problem, and his blood test showed this also, but could easily just be coincidence. I certainly don't treat it as gospel, but I've got nothing to lose by avoiding those foods anyway! Food elimination diets are really the only real way to go, but finding novel proteins is not easy. We used Euk F/P because not only did the derm recommend this as better than Hills, but also because its nutritional analysis had all the requirements of a growing large puppy so it suited us well in that respect. Only problem was it was made with fish, and he had actually had a commercial food prior to this which had fish in it. We saw no change in him which we now realise is because he was actually reacting to the fish!!! Summer is worse, but Orbit is generally bad all year round. Both his blood results showed a reaction to dust mites which are unavoidable and an all year round thing. We did get by on a lower dose of cortisone last winter, probably a lot to do with him wearing a coat so much, so hopefully now with more knowledge we'll do even better this winter. We will do the desensitising injections this winter too when the drugs are reduced and hopefully get some more positive results from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniMum Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) Yeah I've never been one to believe in the food allergy blood tests, though the company who runs them will give you tonnes of information and examples of how they are actually valid. I knew Orbit had a fish problem, and his blood test showed this also, but could easily just be coincidence. I certainly don't treat it as gospel, but I've got nothing to lose by avoiding those foods anyway! Food elimination diets are really the only real way to go, but finding novel proteins is not easy. We used Euk F/P because not only did the derm recommend this as better than Hills, but also because its nutritional analysis had all the requirements of a growing large puppy so it suited us well in that respect. Only problem was it was made with fish, and he had actually had a commercial food prior to this which had fish in it. We saw no change in him which we now realise is because he was actually reacting to the fish!!!Summer is worse, but Orbit is generally bad all year round. Both his blood results showed a reaction to dust mites which are unavoidable and an all year round thing. We did get by on a lower dose of cortisone last winter, probably a lot to do with him wearing a coat so much, so hopefully now with more knowledge we'll do even better this winter. We will do the desensitising injections this winter too when the drugs are reduced and hopefully get some more positive results from them. Oh dear, it us such a minefield, isn't it? It is interesting that fish showed up as being a problem for Oribit in the tests though. Did they show up many other food problems? I mostly feed raw, but have tried some dried foods. The only ones TD likes aren't good enough to be a complete diet or make him itch. I tried the Hills Sensitive Skin, but he didn't even like the smell of it . The derm hasn't mentioned desensitisaton, but it has all been about TDs ear so far, so maybe it will be different tomorrow. TD also has dustmite allergy. But then, so is my asthmatic son. With my son I use eucalyptus oil when I wash linen and hard surfaces. This really helped my son, and I'm hoping it does the same for TD. I just have to remember to wash all his blankets too. Think I'll be pulling up the carpet soon too (its only in the bedrooms anyway). We haved been washing TD in Aloveen (suggested by vet, not derm), but it makes no difference. He has run out now and it'll be interesting to see what the derm recommends. Edited February 4, 2009 by MiniMum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Oh dear, it us such a minefield, isn't it? It is interesting that fish showed up as being a problem for Oribit in the tests though. Did they show up many other food problems?I mostly feed raw, but have tried some dried foods. The only ones TD likes aren't good enough to be a complete diet or make him itch. I tried the Hills Sensitive Skin, but he didn't even like the smell of it . The derm hasn't mentioned desensitisaton, but it has all been about TDs ear so far, so maybe it will be different tomorrow. TD also has dustmite allergy. But then, so is my asthmatic son. With my son I use eucalyptus oil when I wash linen and hard surfaces. This really helped my son, and I'm hoping it does the same for TD. I just have to remember to wash all his blankets too. Think I'll be pulling up the carpet soon too (its only in the bedrooms anyway). We haved been washing TD in Aloveen (suggested by vet, not derm), but it makes no difference. He has run out now and it'll be interesting to see what the derm recommends. Off the top of my head, he came back with positive results to chicken, duck and fish and a fair amount of grains. I think the results are in this thread somewhere? But it's interesting he is showing a physical reaction to chicken! Aloveen was always a problem for us. After using the shampoo or conditioner on him he'd break out again. His blood test actually also showed a positive so oatmeal so I guess that's quite possibly true!! We use Rufus & Coco's medicated shampoo now as it's the only one that doesn't dry his skin out. Dry skin increases the itchiness so its important to keep it hydrated. Day 3 of feeding him chicken today with everything else remaining the same, eg normal doses of cortisone and phenergan and he still has very obvious urticaria. Taking him off the chicken as of tomorrow so will see what happens!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiniMum Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Have just come back from the derm. It is still mostly about his ear, but it is nearly there. For the first time since he came to live with us he could have a thorough ear examination without being sedated. Things are much better, but not shiny, so we still have an ear regiem(?), but much reduced. Also have two conditioners to use - one for the contact itchies and one for when he has little sores. The Aloveen is to be used on the other bits. Think I am going to get him his own toiletries bag . At least this time they mentioned desensitising in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zayda_asher Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Well our latest: Despite having everything crossed for no new food allergies, we've got one: goat. Which is a bummer because that's been a staple here... We've only got mackerel left to do in meats, then veg / fruit, cereals and supplements to retest. So keep your fingers, toes and whatever else crossed for us that we don't find any more!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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