Christina77 Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 I've come to the decision to get Bella a Halti Collar as her pulling on the lead has gone from bad to extreme. She was behaving really well until a few weeks ago but has reverted in her training ;) , I'm putting it down to her age etc but today I saw a Mallie with a Halter and had a chat with the owner. His 6 month old Mall pup had a size 3 on, I was just wondering if any of you have one and what size etc as I need to order it online and can't just take it back to exchange etc Bella is a medium sized Red Cattle dog , would a size 3 be ok ? I was annoyed at the comments people were making to the guy with the Mal, they said "oh it has a muzzle does it bite ?" Groannnnnnn this is why I have put off getting one because of the small community mentality here (oh so and so's dog has a muzzle :D ) but I need to get her walking under control as I do a lot of walking with her and it frightens me in case she pulls me over as I'm one of those people who can trip over "nothing " :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaye1234 Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 ;) I understand about the comment people give i had one person say to there child don't touch that dog he wearing a muzzle he must be aggressive. I explained to this woman that it was not a muzzle but a gentle leader and he wears it because he pulled i was so mad :D :D D'arcy does not pull but i still let he wear it and im proud to say that my dog wears a gentle leader. :p Darcy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gusgem Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 I think Halti's are one of THE BEST INVENTIONS EVER!!!!!! Look at the pack, it should show you what size to get, my old GSD bitch was on a size three, so I'm thinking it would be too big for your bella, maybe try a size two, but check the pack first to see what they suggest. You can now get different colours of Halti's and Gentle Leaders and Blackdog even make similar ones, but I much prefer Halti brand as I find them stronger and it is harder for the dog to pull off.....oh and expect her to paw at it! Every dog does! Just remember to praise her when she stops. I used to walk my GSD on them and it made taking her and the others a dream, because she wouldn't pull my arm off but could still smell things as she wished! Best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina77 Posted November 10, 2004 Author Share Posted November 10, 2004 Just read K9's article http://www.k9force.net/halter.html I think I will keep training her on the normal lead or harness, I used her harness today and she was quite good , not sure what to do now ! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 I've had the comment "Why is your dog wearing a muzzle?" Annoying but understanable as they do look like a muzzle to someone who doesn't have a dog. Halti's are fabulous. I found that Tim hated it initially and tried to rub it off on the grass but he is used to it now. When I tried it on Danni, our foster dog, my husband was watching me walk down the front path with her and when I returned he had tears in his eyes from laughing so much. She hates it with a passion and fought all the way, trying to scrape it off with her paws, on trees, on the grass, my leg. When I bought the Halti from the pet shop I was told I could return it if it wasn't the right size or I could bring my dog in to be fitted. Tim is a Kelpie X and has a Size 2. Perhaps you could ask if you could take Bella in to be fitted but I would think the size 2 would be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitaowner Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 almost all petshops sell haltis of some variety (gentle leaders, blackdog etc) so im sure u could try before u buy - i think mine is a size 3 they are pretty adjustable but they need to fit correctly or wont have the desired effect i think its also a mentality thing - when he has it on - even if the leads clipped to his collar he behaves so i like to use it My 8 month old akita it prob wont last too much longer he seems to outgrow stuff like its going out of fashion - we still do training without it but i like to have it for road walking good luck - people always think i have a vicious japanese fighting dog with a muzzle on except he wants to lick people!! u get used to the comments..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gusgem Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Christina, don't wanna sound harsh or anything, but just because you read stuff on K9's website about halters doesn't necessarily mean that it will be right for you or your Bella....trust me, I totally stuffed up my GSD by opinions from other people and "trainers". Totally go with your instinct, it'll work better in the long run.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 G: Christina, don't wanna sound harsh or anything, but just because you read stuff on K9's website about halters doesn't necessarily mean that it will be right for you or your Bella.... K9: the only critisism I have on halters as a training tool is that I dont believe that they train the dog at all, rather manage the problem. As a restraint, Im critical as they can & do cause neck injuries, I cant see how that is right for anyone, or their dog. I have said before that due to the amount of leverage you have over the dog, you may get instant results, but I dont feel that those results are lasting nor worth the risk to the dog. Others will disagree, which I can understand. There is nothing you can do with a halti that you wont do with other collars, without the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 GK9: the only critisism I have on halters as a training tool is that I dont believe that they train the dog at all, rather manage the problem. As a restraint, Im critical as they can & do cause neck injuries, I cant see how that is right for anyone, or their dog. I have said before that due to the amount of leverage you have over the dog, you may get instant results, but I dont feel that those results are lasting nor worth the risk to the dog. Others will disagree, which I can understand. There is nothing you can do with a halti that you wont do with other collars, without the risk. K9...........I don't necessarily agree with this statement. In my experience, Tim now walks a lot better on lead when I don't use the Halti. I would suspect the Halti has taught him it is not a good idea to pull and he probably won't need it in the future therefore it has had a lasting effect. I only use it now if I have both dogs on lead, as Danni still has a bit to learn with lead training. I use a harness with her. If I persisted she would adapt to a Halti eventually but I feel I need more control of her around busy roads. The only detrimental thing about a Halti that I have found is that a strong willed dog can get it off pretty quickly................not good near traffic. I also can't see how it would cause a neck injury. If a dog fights it enough the Halti would have come off long before an injury can occur. A sharp yank by an owner or a dog pulling strongly on a normal collar and lead surely would be more likely to cause a neck injury??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 TM: K9...........I don't necessarily agree with this statement. In my experience, Tim now walks a lot better on lead when I don't use the Halti. K9: then I will suggest that your dog did not need the halti to stop pulling. TM: I would suspect the Halti has taught him it is not a good idea to pull and he probably won't need it in the future therefore it has had a lasting effect. I only use it now if I have both dogs on lead, as Danni still has a bit to learn with lead training. I use a harness with her. If I persisted she would adapt to a Halti eventually but I feel I need more control of her around busy roads. K9: I am having trouble understanding the above, it works or it doesnt? Not a good idea to pull, then still pulls other times? TM: I also can't see how it would cause a neck injury. K9: might be worth speaking to the canine chiros who treat neck injuries from them. TM: If a dog fights it enough the Halti would have come off long before an injury can occur. K9: if they are fitted correctly, & sized correctly, they dont come off. But if you think they do, thats another reason not to use them. TM: A sharp yank by an owner or a dog pulling strongly on a normal collar and lead surely would be more likely to cause a neck injury??????? K9: when I say neck, Im taking about spinal injury. The fact that the leash is hooked under the chin will snap the dogs neck around if it lunges. Dogs stop pulling as pulling strains neck muscles causing pain & they back off to release this pain. Other more experienced handlers use the halters to guide the head around & take focus off what the dog is pulling toward. I have a rule in dog training, many actually but here is one "learning will only take place when the dog offers the behaviour". This means that if you pull the head around to gain focus, you will always be pulling it around... In their design, the muzzle strap restricts when pull the leash, often that big pink thing (tongue) gets bitten when this happens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 (edited) There have been a couple of threads in recent months on head halters. Like K9 I'm not a fan - PARTICULARLY when it comes to head halters use on small dogs - because the angle of use is much greater and the same amount of force on a small dog's lead leads to greater impact. Buy hey don't take our word for it, look around, do your research. The premise of the halti is that it acts like a head halter on a horse. BIG PROBLEMS with this theory. A halti must be fitted so tightly on a dog that is often uncomfortable (on a horse you should be able to fit your hand anywhere between a halter and the horses head. A horse is led with the lead attached to the halter at such an angle that any pressure is downward... not the case with a dog. If you think a dog can't learn to pull on a halti - think again... IMHO if a dog fights when a halti is fitted - it is trying to tell you something...like it is extremely uncomfortable or painful? And here's Susan Clothier's views to consider. http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html Edited November 11, 2004 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Hi I use a Gentle Leader on Nova for control. I know some people have said it doesnt do anything in regards to training and i think it is true however i do need something other then a normal collar to control Nova at times. I sometimes train him in it and it does help him relax and listens more, at home he doesnt need it he heels lovely but when other dogs around i need a bit more control and this does it. He is getting better at leaving other dogs alone so when he does well enough i wont need it anymore. Nova does know what heel means but sometimes if a dog next to us stuffs up a bit i need something to get his attention back. I dont use it as a training device but when you have a 2 year very active dog you do need something extra until he grows up a bit (mentally) I prefer to use the GL then a correction collar. About the people who think they are muzzles ;) I constantly try and explain to people it gives a bit more control. Thanks Natasha & Nova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 T: I sometimes train him in it and it does help him relax and listens more, at home he doesnt need it he heels lovely but when other dogs around i need a bit more control and this does it. K9: yes I agree it does this, the reason it does it though is as the dog considers the halter an aversive, & aversives reduce drive, take some drive out of a dog is an easy way to get control. This is exactly what a correction collar does, minus the risks. They are nothing like a muzzle, its hard to educate those who think they do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina77 Posted November 11, 2004 Author Share Posted November 11, 2004 Thanks everyone for all the info, it sure helps to read about people's opinions and experiences , as a matter of fact what Tim's mum said about the Halti being capable of coming off , not good near traffic has made up my mind not to get one. Bella thinks cars are fair game at the moment (only utes, go figure :D ) so I couldn't take the risk of the Halti coming off. I also can't take her in for a fitting , no pet shops here which is why I was asking if anyone could tell me if a size 3 would be ok, the joys of living out in the sticks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Haltis come off thats why you have a correction collar on as well. as a precaution but gentle leaders dont come off something to do with the way they are fitted around the back of the head i think. For a double precaution though you could attach another lead to her collar if you dont feel safe with a GL on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpikesPuppy Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 You can also get special straps that clip the halti to the 'D' on the collar. Blackdog Halters are made with 'escape artist' dogs in mind and I have used both Blackdog & Halti brands and found Blackdog to be more secure. I don't need to use anything more than a flat buckle collar on my 2 big dogs now (Either the Halti stopped my Dobe from pulling, I got better at training her or she grew out of pulling- she was so bad that even the instrctor was pulled around by her. Very strong girl). And I only used the Halter on my Newf 'cos that's what was the main tool used at the obedience club. I don't know whether or not he needed it. The best thing I found with a Halter on my Dobe was it helped me get her to 'focus' on me, which was important for agility training (she worked on a flat during agility). It just made it that much easier to get her to turn her head towards me (no force, just a gentle 'jiggle' of the leash to gain her attention). As for sizes (although you said you we'rnt getting one anymore) I used a size 2 on my Dobe and a size 3 on my GSD girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim'sMum Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 as a matter of fact what Tim's mum said about the Halti being capable of coming off , not good near traffic has made up my mind not to get one.Bella thinks cars are fair game at the moment (only utes, go figure :D ) so I couldn't take the risk of the Halti coming off. There are other types of training leads for pulling, so Christina if it worries you try something else. I didn't fit Tim's Halti tightly as he is a fairly quiet and amenable dog but even tightly fitted I feel they can still possibly come off reasonably easily, compared to a normal collar and lead. It all depends on the dog. Danni didn't like it and it wasn't tight or uncomfortable, as it is possibly too large for her. I just wanted to see how she went with it. As for car chasing with Bella, I had a similiar problem with Danni when we first began to foster her. I took advice from this forum and carried a spray bottle of water and squirted her every time she lunged towards traffic. It worked quickly as she doesn't like water. K9 force........I will ask my chiropractor if he has had any injuries from Halti's......he treats humans and dogs (after hours). Maybe, as I don't fit the Halti tightly, I can't see how it could cause an injury. In regard to Tim pulling.......he was terrible before the Halti.......has improved dramatically since using it and I now only use it when I walk both dogs to avoid having arms like a gorilla. When possible I walk them seperately but sometimes time is a bit short. If Danni pulls, he pulls! If I walk him on his own without the Halti he doesn't pull?????? : She is a bad influence on him methinks! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 here is a paragraph from this website The head collar and the no-pull halter work by pressuring the dog's head in the former case and his underarms in the latter case. Although they are hailed by some as the only humane training devices effective on every dog, they do not live up to this advance billing. The head collar can injure a thin-necked dog and is not suitable for nervous, fearful, or jumpy dogs, and the no-pull halter may be counterproductive on thick-skinned, hard-headed dogs. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divine Angel Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 I am getting a Maremma Sheepdog and have already bought a Halti. I talked to a friend who has a Doberman X and she said that if the dog has all the power in the shoulders (as a Maremma would), then a Halti is the way to go because then the dog's head controls it as opposed to you controlling the dog. As for the muzzle question, obviously the people asking you have never seen a muzzle!! Most daogs have their mouths open while walking, I would say to them "Can you not see that the dog's mouth is open?" or, if I was in a nasty mood, "Yes, dog does bite, please go away before it humps your leg as well!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina77 Posted November 11, 2004 Author Share Posted November 11, 2004 As for the muzzle question, obviously the people asking you have never seen a muzzle!! Most daogs have their mouths open while walking, I would say to them "Can you not see that the dog's mouth is open?" or, if I was in a nasty mood, "Yes, dog does bite, please go away before it humps your leg as well!" :D :p Problem with this small community is that one person mentions so and so's dog has a muzzle ( :D ) and it's around the neighbourhood in seconds.......and what they don't know they'll make up Had a good chat with hubbie last night who until now has left the training to me , he can see I'm serious about correcting her behaviour before it gets worse and has started training her, took her last night and this morning and was very strict with her followed the same training methods ,used his powerfull voice (lol his words) and she listend like an angel anyway its better then what he was doing before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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