Too Much Socialisation

[Roguedog]

I would also say that if I wanted to exercise my dog off leash & your dog just wanted to come up & play, I would not be as happy as you would be about it. Some people just dont like your dog coming up all the time.

Specially of they are trying to rehab maybe some aggression in their dog.

Exactly!! I dont mind my dogs occasionally interacting with other off lead dogs but bloody well ask first!! I cant stand when people allow their dog to run up to my dogs (who are behaving themselves and working for me) as mentioned in another post, that can lead to fights.

[corvus]

But if you're at a dog park or off leash dog beach, do you seriously ask every single owner before your dog approaches their dog? When I was at the dog park on the weekend there were some 10 other dogs running around playing together and no easy way to tell who was who's owner. I kinda assume that if you are at a dog park and your dogs are off leash and happily playing with other dogs then my dog slinking up and introducing himself and joining in the fun is not going to cause a fight. It doesn't in my experience.

IMO, you aim for a balance with your dog and other dogs. They should spend time with their own kind and learn all the different ways dogs can communicate, and they are welcome to have a whole heap of excellent fun in the process. But they can't be running up to every dog they set eyes on no matter where they are. Kivi is allowed to say hi to another dog we might meet while walking the streets, but only sometimes if their owners want to and Kivi is expected to be reasonably calm about it all. He is expected to accept that sometimes we don't stop and talk to the other dog. And at the dog park he knows from experience that not every dog will be his friend.

Last time I shared my views on this topic Kivi was still coming away from other dogs when called some of the time. Now he comes away about 85% of the time, although we haven't tested it much lately and I expect it's actually higher than that. I think most of this improvement comes from maturity, although we have spent some time improving his recall at home. For all I know he's better because he now spends two days a week at doggy daycare and gets a pile of dogs all to himself on a regular basis. I adore watching him play. It's great fun. I love watching how he deals with other dogs. It's often different. His drive to play with other dogs is a good thing to teach him how to avoid annoying other dogs. I just sit back and watch him make mistakes and correct himself. I only step in if his brain isn't working and he's in danger of making the same mistake twice.

[Steve K9Pro]

But if you're at a dog park or off leash dog beach, do you seriously ask every single owner before your dog approaches their dog?

K9: I don't go to off leash parks, but if I did I would not turn up & unleash my dog & hope for the best.

When I was at the dog park on the weekend there were some 10 other dogs running around playing together and no easy way to tell who was who's owner. I kinda assume that if you are at a dog park and your dogs are off leash and happily playing with other dogs then my dog slinking up and introducing himself and joining in the fun is not going to cause a fight. It doesn't in my experience.

K9: Then your experience is rare, many will tell you that, over a number of visits, dog packs can occur & when a new dog tries to join in, pack fights can break out.

IMO, you aim for a balance with your dog and other dogs.

K9: But you cant control the other dogs, so no way of gaining balance with them...

They should spend time with their own kind and learn all the different ways dogs can communicate,

K9: why should they?

and they are welcome to have a whole heap of excellent fun in the process.

K9: or get attacked or learn they can ignore the owner etc etc

But they can't be running up to every dog they set eyes on no matter where they are. Kivi is allowed to say hi to another dog we might meet while walking the streets, but only sometimes if their owners want to and Kivi is expected to be reasonably calm about it all. He is expected to accept that sometimes we don't stop and talk to the other dog. And at the dog park he knows from experience that not every dog will be his friend.

K9: thats right, & he knows that not every dog will be his friend how?

Last time I shared my views on this topic Kivi was still coming away from other dogs when called some of the time. Now he comes away about 85% of the time, although we haven't tested it much lately and I expect it's actually higher than that. I think most of this improvement comes from maturity, although we have spent some time improving his recall at home.

K9: Maturity doesn't train dogs though, training does. If he is allowed to re enforce not recalling, no amount of maturity will correct that.

Also when you dont do any testing, your simply guessing when it comes to what degree of compliance you will have.

As I mentioned last time, everyone makes a choice for their own dogs, I have made mine based on the amount of people I see that fall into trouble allowing all manner of dog play.

Edited April 27, 2009 by K9 Force

[Erny]

But if you're at a dog park or off leash dog beach, do you seriously ask every single owner before your dog approaches their dog?

I have and I do. Seriously. For my dog's sake as well as for courtesy to others (whether they expect it or not). Not that I hang around heavily populated off-lead dog parks anyway. I tend to look for quite spots at quiet times. The advantage of having a job that isn't exactly 9-5.

[Just Midol]

but I don't think having dogs play with other dogs has any benefit.

Ever? Even if a dog is an only dog and the owner works 10 hours per day? There is no value at all in playing with another dog? What about enjoyment?

I don't ket my dog play with every dog we come across, but I'd hate to think of the life he would live if I never, ever once allowed him to play with another dog.

I work 12 hours a day and my dogs easily get enough stimulation.

I'd have no problems if they were never allowed to spend time with another dog. In fact, they only spend time with dogs within my family. Outside dogs = no.

But you have more than one dog. What if you only had one?

Then they'd get no play?

I can provide all the stimulation they need. If I couldn't then I wouldn't get a dog.

----

Our only decent dog beach is an offleash beach. If anyones dogs approach mine and jump on them then there is likely to be a fight. It would be their fault.

I expect people to have excellent control of their dogs on unfenced beaches and parks. If it is a fenced park, then my expectations drop.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Just Midol

[Storm2008]

At the moment I cant socialise my Bull terrier cross, he is dog aggressive due to being attacked 2wice as a puppy by "OFF" lead dogs running around the street.. :rolleyes:, he never recovered from it.

The only dogs he social with is my brothers 2 blue heelers who he has grown up with..And his best pal Storm.. Whom he lives with.

[corvus]

We are just attacking this problem from different angles. K9 and co. opt for taking control themselves. I opt for giving my dogs all the tools they need to take control and make smart decisions. The more they know about dogs from experience the better they are at reading dogs they've never met before. Seeing as they are dogs and I am human, they will always be better equipped to read dogs accurately than I am. I choose to foster that and use it to our advantage. I love that my older dog doesn't even have to be told to stay away from a dog that looks vaguely aggressive. I can walk her right past it on a narrow footpath while completely ignoring it and her if I wanted to and she would not make eye contact or go near enough to touch it. It means that I never do have to worry about her approaching a dog that is unfriendly. She doesn't run up to other dogs. Kivi doesn't either, as a general rule. When he does I can only conclude he knows what he's doing because the dogs he does it to love it.

My dogs know that not all dogs are friendly because they've been snapped at, growled at, lunged at, and in Penny's case, outright attacked. I am very glad that I have places I can take Kivi where he can mix with other dogs, be snapped at and growled at but remain safe. Daycare is great for that. Lots of friendly dogs, but every now and then they grump at one another, but all being well socialised themselves, no one ever gets hurt. I only wish I'd had somewhere I could take Penny where she could be safe interacting with other dogs. Being attacked certainly didn't do her any favours.

What it comes down to is this: I would ABSOLUTELY neutralise a dog towards something I strongly suspected would be consistently more exciting to that dog than me. I would not neutralise a dog towards anything on the offchance that it would be consistently more exciting or even occasionally more exciting to that dog than me. I have an extraordinarily social dog that gets excited whenever he sees or hears other dogs. His preferred state of being is lying on the ground with at least one dog on top of him. Still, he comes away from dogs when called. We put in a bit of work and we get the best of both worlds: we get to watch him have a great time with other dogs and he comes when called.

For those that want to be the centre of their dogs' universe, go ahead and make that for yourself. I don't care. But don't try to convince me that I want that because I know that I most emphatically do not. All I ask is that my dog not annoy the crap out of me and stay safe. If I can do that without neutralisation I most certainly will.

[Quickasyoucan]

For those that want to be the centre of their dogs' universe, go ahead and make that for yourself. I don't care. But don't try to convince me that I want that because I know that I most emphatically do not. All I ask is that my dog not annoy the crap out of me and stay safe. If I can do that without neutralisation I most certainly will.

Corvus, what about your dog annoying the crap out of others though. Not everyone wants a dog, even a friendly one, running up to their dog or their kid? A lot of dogs, as they get older, don't want a boisterous "friendly" puppy bouncing around in their face. I personally don't like being jumped all over by "friendly" large dogs, I love dogs, but I don't love the scars on my legs from their nails as they jump up, nor my ball being snatched from my hand, my nephew is scared of dogs because of being licked as a baby by an over friendly dog, not an aggressive one.

I also don't understand how you would be prepared to let your dog run the risk of being attacked, so that is could learn a lesson that "not all dogs are friendly"??? What happens if he doesn't read a dog well and it kills him? You are supposed to be responsible for your dogs well being, how does that fit in with this?

[Steve K9Pro]

We are just attacking this problem from different angles. K9 and co. opt for taking control themselves. I opt for giving my dogs all the tools they need to take control and make smart decisions.

K9: & that's fine, but crediting dogs with decision making skills can lead to disaster.

The more they know about dogs from experience the better they are at reading dogs they've never met before.

K9: True, but these skills are learned through a trial & error system, its the error part I am concerned about.

Seeing as they are dogs and I am human, they will always be better equipped to read dogs accurately than I am.

K9: Incorrect, only dogs with dog experience have reading skills, not every dog. For example, lets say I get a young dog that's 12 months old, never seen an unknown dog before, you think it will posses skills to read other dogs? No chance.

I choose to foster that and use it to our advantage. I love that my older dog doesn't even have to be told to stay away from a dog that looks vaguely aggressive. I can walk her right past it on a narrow footpath while completely ignoring it and her if I wanted to and she would not make eye contact or go near enough to touch it. It means that I never do have to worry about her approaching a dog that is unfriendly. She doesn't run up to other dogs. Kivi doesn't either, as a general rule. When he does I can only conclude he knows what he's doing because the dogs he does it to love it.

K9: Iagree with all this but the path to get where you are is somewhat dangerous & not the easy to replicate for your average person as it is not a neccessity I rate the risk too high for my clients & I.

My dogs know that not all dogs are friendly because they've been snapped at, growled at, lunged at, and in Penny's case, outright attacked.

K9: So your experience is what I try & avoid.

For those that want to be the centre of their dogs' universe, go ahead and make that for yourself. I don't care. But don't try to convince me that I want that because I know that I most emphatically do not. All I ask is that my dog not annoy the crap out of me and stay safe. If I can do that without neutralisation I most certainly will.

K9: I wouldn't for a second try & convince you that my programs are good for you, I already have hundreds of people on them now & thousands in the past.

Undrstand that I am looking at things from a much greater perspective than you, I am looking at many thousands of dogs over 20 plus years of doing this vs you looking at your own dog pack.

So I try & give people the best chance of success based on my experience.

Clients have the choice to take from me what they wish, but when we do puppy programs & people opt for high positive value situations with other dogs, in future lessons they always ask how to train a better recall on their dog that wont come back anymore when playing with other dogs.

[huski]

What it comes down to is this: I would ABSOLUTELY neutralise a dog towards something I strongly suspected would be consistently more exciting to that dog than me. I would not neutralise a dog towards anything on the offchance that it would be consistently more exciting or even occasionally more exciting to that dog than me. I have an extraordinarily social dog that gets excited whenever he sees or hears other dogs. His preferred state of being is lying on the ground with at least one dog on top of him. Still, he comes away from dogs when called. We put in a bit of work and we get the best of both worlds: we get to watch him have a great time with other dogs and he comes when called.

Some dogs aren't as laid back as Kivi, though, Corvus and I think that's where problems start happening. Some dogs do see other dogs as consistently more exciting than their handler. Some dogs lunge on their leads and practically pull their handler over to get to another dog. To change the values around and get the dog seeing the handler as the most exciting option instead, and to gain good focus and control back, can be really difficult once it gets to that point. I can totally understand why some owners chose to neutralise their dogs towards others. It makes sense to me as someone who wants to do obedience, we teach our dogs how awesome other dogs are and then have to undo that and get them to ignore them once we want their focus in training.

I'm lucky in one way as I have a dog who has very little interest in other dogs apart from a quick sniff and occasional game of play. 95% of the time at DOL meets Daisy is off on her own with her nose to the ground and is really not that fussed on interacting with other dogs (so I just have to compete with her urge to scent, instead, lol).

ETA: And at a guess, most times Daisy is interested in another dog involves her simply wanting to smell it and having little interest in it afterwards. So other dogs may be more about a stimulating and interesting smell for her and not so much about the play aspect.

Edited April 28, 2009 by huski

[poodlefan]

Three of my four dogs would not behave aggressively to a strange dog.

However I can guarantee that two of them would prefer not to meet one. How does that fit with your socialisation approach Corvus? Is what your dog chooses to do more important than what mine would prefer?

I have a very friendly young dog.. too friendly for his own good really. He too is deferential to dogs who do not greet him with enthusisam - but I like him in one piece. So I keep him under control until I've assessed the new dog AND its owner a little.

[Kavik]

My dogs know that not all dogs are friendly because they've been snapped at, growled at, lunged at, and in Penny's case, outright attacked. I am very glad that I have places I can take Kivi where he can mix with other dogs, be snapped at and growled at but remain safe. Daycare is great for that. Lots of friendly dogs, but every now and then they grump at one another, but all being well socialised themselves, no one ever gets hurt. I only wish I'd had somewhere I could take Penny where she could be safe interacting with other dogs. Being attacked certainly didn't do her any favours.

Not all dogs would react to this the same way. Zoe was placed in similar circumstances and became aggressive towards ALL dogs. What may turn your dog into a submissive dog who is not going to rush in to get into trouble caused my dog to dislike all other dogs. Individual temperament is important to consider. I have also seen dogs in a daycare become progressively more grumpy with other dogs as time went on. While they came in on their first visit as happy outgoing dogs who wanted to play, months later they growled and snapped at other dogs. This is watching up to 45 dogs, day in day out, for 2 years.

What really annoys me is when I am walking my dog calmly by my side on the side of the footpath and the person approaching has their dog lunging on their lead, choking themselves, to try to get to my dog to 'visit' because it is 'friendly'. None of my dogs, even the friendly ones, take too well to that. And even if I am off the footpath so they have plenty of room to pass, they still allow their dog the length of the lead, and sometimes even come closer!

[Paganman]

Seeing as they are dogs and I am human, they will always be better equipped to read dogs accurately than I am.

I dont reckon thats true of all dogs.My Jade doesnt like other girls and she makes it pretty darn clear that she doesnt.If another female come running up she stands all stiff and gets up on her toes and puts her tail up and if they get real close shell growl.But that doesnt stop all dogs they just dont read what she does as "Keep away" and some of them just keep coming and get right in her face.Other dogs seem to read her ok but some dogs run up to all other dogs and carnt seem to read dog body language at all.

[Odin-Genie]

Food for thought: aren't all dogs different in terms of temperament, personalities and motivations? And isn't that part of their charm? Then why do we have to have a 'one size fits all' approach?

[poodlefan]

Food for thought: aren't all dogs different in terms of temperament, personalities and motivations? And isn't that part of their charm? Then why do we have to have a 'one size fits all' approach?

I'm not sure I'm following you.

A 'one size fits all' approach to what - socialisation generally?

[Kelpie-i]

Personally I don't go to off lead parks with my dogs any more. They have a group of dog friends that they happily run with but for the most part, their fun and enjoyment comes from me. Just too risky and besides it would not be at all fair on my DA Kelpie.

[corvus]

Okay, HOW many times do I have to say my dogs don't run up to strange dogs before it sinks in? They don't. Penny never does and I've seen Kivi do it twice (if you count all the times he greets Max at the dog park as one, because Max and Kivi have a peculiar way of greeting each other). Both dogs he's done it to loved it. He's never done it to a dog that doesn't like it, even when he was a pup and still learning.

I haven't anywhere said that I let my dogs do whatever they like. They also don't jump on people. It's not like I stand by and let Kivi pin a smaller dog down and chew on its face, although whenever I get him off they're back at it 2 seconds later anyway. I've only met one dog I thought might seriously hurt him and both dogs were off leash at the time. Kivi certainly did not approach this dog and held very still and small while she checked him out and everything was fine. Every now and then I'm not confident the move he is making is safe and I stop him just to be on the safe side. I leave things be when a lot of people wouldn't, but I haven't ever thought it would be okay when it hasn't been. Heaps of times I've been a bit worried and it turned out fine. I don't yet trust Kivi not to do something suicidal and so obviously keep tabs on him, but I have no reason to believe he would do something suicidal.

There are a few dogs we know at the park that charge Kivi in greeting. They never do it to Penny, who doesn't like it has never had to so much as raise her lip to make that clear to them. They take one look at her and avoid her.

I am fine with my dog being snapped and growled at in the course of becoming experienced in dog language. I am not fine with them being attacked, obviously, and it's a shame that you can't walk down the street without risking a territorial dog tearing out of nowhere and grabbing your dog. No amount of neutralisation or socialisation would have saved us from that one, so no point discussing it.

I don't have a particular method of socialisation. I'm just explaining why I have done things the way I have and why I am happy with how it has worked out. I have said it before and I will say it again: I went the dog park/daycare route with Kivi because I could see that he could handle the ups and downs. Sometimes it's scary and you have to have a dog that won't find it so scary that they stop thinking. I also know a dog that reacted very badly to socialisation, and if I found myself with a dog of a similar temperament I would most likely do things very differently.

Lastly, I pay more attention to owners than dogs. If owners are tense I try to make eye contact and ask them if it's all right for my dog to approach. If I can't get their attention I err on the side of caution and keep him away. If they are nervous but make no attempt to move their dog away from mine I assume they just don't know what's going to happen and make a judgement call myself. I haven't ever got it wrong. I'm not about to sit here and list all the different kinds of dogs and situations I've seen, but if I'm not confident I am cautious. If I think a dog will do no more than snap and Kivi annoys it, it snaps and he learns. If I think a dog might do more than just snap I stay close and watch like a hawk, but usually it's all for nothing and Kivi finds someone else to play with on his own.

Like I said, K9, I don't care who wants to neutralise and they're welcome to do it. I love watching dogs play, so it's not entirely compatible with the way I like to enjoy my dogs and the activities I like to do with them. That doesn't mean it's not perfect for your hundreds and thousands of clients. It seems extreme to me and always will.

[ILFC]

I love watching Grover play but I certainly went down the path of the "dog park" and other dogs held much more value for Grover than I did. I think you learn a lot from your first dog and I wouldn't do some things again. I love him meeting like minded dogs but I am very cautious now of who he approaches as he seems to lack self moderation and never seemed to really learn it, like I thought he would. It can be a steep learning curve.

[rijbiz]

We don't use dog parks but this is mainly because we have never lived near one. I currently walk Cleo down the trails near our house but always on a lead, mainly because being a hound I can't guarantee her recall! If another dog approaches either on or off lead and it appears friendly I will let her "say hello" before continuing but there is no play and if a dog gives me any cause for concern we just keep walking with a "watch" command so her focus is on me.

We've taken the dogs to the dog beach once, our old guy was off lead and never left our side but we walked Cleo for around an hour up and down before finally letting her off. Then hubby stood some distance away and jumped up and down like an idiot calling her until she raced over to him. Soon as she got there lots of praise and then I jumped up and down like an idiot and called her back. We did this for around 5 minutes with her running back and forth and in circles around us, but never once did she go to investigate one of the many other dogs on the beach. After 5 minutes we put her back on the lead with lots of praise - always finish on a good note

All our training is through positive reinforcement.

[Kavik]

I don't have a particular method of socialisation. I'm just explaining why I have done things the way I have and why I am happy with how it has worked out. I have said it before and I will say it again: I went the dog park/daycare route with Kivi because I could see that he could handle the ups and downs. Sometimes it's scary and you have to have a dog that won't find it so scary that they stop thinking. I also know a dog that reacted very badly to socialisation, and if I found myself with a dog of a similar temperament I would most likely do things very differently.

So hopefully this means that if you got a dog who was not interested in playing with other dogs and who could not take being rushed at, humped, jumped on, growled at etc you would not put them in that situation, right? Hopefully you would find out that they are not suitable for the type of dog interactions you like to allow your dogs before your dog has one bad experience too many.