Obedience Troubleshooting

[Ptolomy]

Oh goodie some more issues - glad to see I am not the only one

Some feedback on the suggestions people gave me to try with Beans to stop her stepping to the right when I give her a down signal in the COP. Firstly, she doesn't step if she is on the move - so a drop on recall she goes straight down. The size of the step to the side seems to be related to the distance I am away from her. So 1m in front and she still steps sidways - but it is only a small step. 5m away and it is a sizable one.

Me taking a step to the side and then giving her the down signal - made no difference whatsoever - she still stepped. I tried giving her a sit signal and although smaller - she still stepped sideways. I did set her up on the side of the driveway and gave her a down signal and she just stood there - so I broke her off and tried it again and this time she went straight down without a sideways step.

So thanks for the suggestions I will keep using some of these and going back to basics and will let you know how we progress. If anybody has any other suggestions - I am more than happy to hear them

PS - Jules P I hadn't thought of the agility connection. I do have to say that Beans has her masters agility title, but she is the most unmasters dog out there and she tends to run around with me and stuggles with distance handling. But I will keep it in mind. Thankx

[Ptolomy]

I actually use the drive item behind the dog to stop forward movement, and have just corrected that very thing. The problem I am having atm is dumbell mouthing. The problem arose in the teaching method in the first place like most problems do. She just would'nt hold the dumbell in the correct position in her mouth (just behind the canines).

I tried everything I could think of before moving on and teaching her the rest (my biggest mistake). I tried to reinforce the pressure on the dumbell in the right postion (using resistance) which seemed to work.

As soon as we chained everything together, the dumbell just kept slipping down towards the molars, causing more slight mouthing. Every other dog I have trained has always maintained pressure on the dumbell, but she seems to relax as soon as her bum hits the ground, even know she is still in drive.

I have also tinkered with various drive levels, and reward sequences to se if that would change what she is doing, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. the mouthing is quite slight, but annoying to me, and not right.

Dogdude - is the mouthing as she is running back to you or only when she presents?

[Ptolomy]

Anybody else got a problem you would like some suggestions on how to cure or am I the only one with an issue

We're not trialling in obedience yet, but can I jump in?

I have a sighthound mix, who for quite a while I have been trying to teach her the start of the retrieve - just to hold something in her mouth. We gradually "shaped" it up from look at dumbell, touch dumbell, take dumbell in mouth.... at which point, she launches said dumbell across the room!! I've tried different items, but for her, she always sees them as either a toy, or something that needs to be killed Any suggestions on what I can do about it???

When the said toy goes flying across the room - what do you do???? And just checking at what point id the holding process did it become a missile?

[pipsqueak]

Apart from duck for cover? I've tried a few things, but with limited success. At the moment, I normally just call it quits, without any fuss... although, part of me thinks that me quitting training is what she wants - she isn't that "into" training. I've also tried gently holding her lower jaw, to try to give her the idea, but I meet with a lot of resistance in the form of mouthing and trying to spit. It pretty much becomes a missile as soon as she takes it in her mouth and I release my grip on it - still at the point of me holding the dumbell. Not sure if this makes sense, but it is like her whole attitude changes when she throws it - she is normally a fairly calm dog, but when she throws it, she just looks wound, or wired, or something...

Oh, and I've also tried going back a step, meaning I keep hold of the dumbell, but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

Edited November 22, 2009 by ~pip~

[dogdude]

Dogdude - is the mouthing as she is running back to you or only when she presents?

When she presents. She holds it too loosely, and lets it slip back into the back of her mouth, then does this little "minnie chomp" thing. I was always careful of the point in which I released, so it doesn't seem to be an anticipation thing, like a food rewarded dog sometimes does.

ETA: Sometimes I think that just trying to draw breath is causing it. I have got her going out pretty hard, and by the time she gets back, she is blowing pretty hard.

Surely I can have speed and a good hold at the same time?

Edited November 22, 2009 by dogdude

[Ptolomy]

Dogdude - is the mouthing as she is running back to you or only when she presents?

When she presents. She holds it too loosely, and lets it slip back into the back of her mouth, then does this little "minnie chomp" thing. I was always careful of the point in which I released, so it doesn't seem to be an anticipation thing, like a food rewarded dog sometimes does.

ETA: Sometimes I think that just trying to draw breath is causing it. I have got her going out pretty hard, and by the time she gets back, she is blowing pretty hard.

Surely I can have speed and a good hold at the same time?

Going back to basics - if you have her sitting and give her the dumbbell to hold - what does she do?

If you place the db at her feet and standing right in front of her and ask her to fetch - does she still reposition and chew?

[Ptolomy]

Apart from duck for cover? I've tried a few things, but with limited success. At the moment, I normally just call it quits, without any fuss... although, part of me thinks that me quitting training is what she wants - she isn't that "into" training. I've also tried gently holding her lower jaw, to try to give her the idea, but I meet with a lot of resistance in the form of mouthing and trying to spit. It pretty much becomes a missile as soon as she takes it in her mouth and I release my grip on it - still at the point of me holding the dumbell. Not sure if this makes sense, but it is like her whole attitude changes when she throws it - she is normally a fairly calm dog, but when she throws it, she just looks wound, or wired, or something...

Oh, and I've also tried going back a step, meaning I keep hold of the dumbell, but it doesn't seem to make any difference.

pip - does you dog carry anything around in her mouth at all eg a toy??? and have you tried asking her to hold anything else other than a db?

Is your db wood or plastic? - I guess this question should go to dogdude as well - have you tried a different sort of dumbbell?

[Casima]

My problem..... well Bean's really

In the COP (change of positions) I give the down signal and she takes a huge step to her right and then drops.

She has always done this. If I stand her next to a post or a cone then it doesn't happen, but usually in a trial you don't get the chance to use a post or a cone and it usually costs us a couple of points.

Any suggestions on how to cure this ......please

Hi Ptolomy, love your Tollers!! Agility person here, but you did say anyone can chime in.

Have you tryed teaching her to drop on a target to fix this? rather than giving her a barrier to avoid it will give her something to aim for, I find this sort of training gives the dog a better understanding of what you really want and is much easier to fade sucessfully than barriers. I would start from the beginning and free shape her to go to and drop on the target, make sure reward is given while in position, this should help her understand that the location of her drop is important, add your cue and then once you have proofed that to a few locations, position her for the COP on the target and practise it with the target for a long while before fading. With all the reinforcement for dropping you will have to do lots of rewarding for not anticipating especially while the target is still there. Try to use a target that is not too big of a visual cue for the dog to make it easier to fade.

Here is one of my problems. I've been trying to teach my young dog a good solid stand stay, which she does well except that she has a tendancy to move one or both her back feet alittle, like she is shifting her weight or something. I've only taken it to the stage where I will reward her very very often and only move 1-2 meters away from her max, continually stuffing treats in her face, I've added some distractions also, generally her foot movment occurs when I am near her and doesn't seem to have anything to do with distractions. I've tryed very hard to only reward her stays up until the point she moves a foot, resetting her once she moves but no improvment, I don't think she is aware she is doing it. She is training for agility and I have done alot of rear end awareness work with her already (ladder work, standing in her water bowl, perch work, 2o2o contact training, walking on her hind legs and early handstand work) but we have hit a bit of a wall and I don't know how to fix this. Any suggestions?

[dogdude]

Here is one of my problems. I've been trying to teach my young dog a good solid stand stay, which she does well except that she has a tendancy to move one or both her back feet alittle, like she is shifting her weight or something. I've only taken it to the stage where I will reward her very very often and only move 1-2 meters away from her max, continually stuffing treats in her face, I've added some distractions also, generally her foot movment occurs when I am near her and doesn't seem to have anything to do with distractions. I've tryed very hard to only reward her stays up until the point she moves a foot, resetting her once she moves but no improvment, I don't think she is aware she is doing it. She is training for agility and I have done alot of rear end awareness work with her already (ladder work, standing in her water bowl, perch work, 2o2o contact training, walking on her hind legs and early handstand work) but we have hit a bit of a wall and I don't know how to fix this. Any suggestions?

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I would only give quiet feedback while standing still, and end the exercise with release/reward. I would also use an NRM.

[dogdude]

If you place the db at her feet and standing right in front of her and ask her to fetch - does she still reposition and chew?

Yes, so there goes one of my theories I guess.

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[Ptolomy]

My problem is Poppy is scared in the stays. In the down stay it isn't so much of a problem. In the sit stays she looks nervous and then drops. She is fine at home. She did get a fright at the beginning of the year when a large shepherd eyeballed her. Pretty much haven't been able to do a competition stay since. Very frustrating as the rest of her work is nice. She is 2yo. I don't trust her not to snap at other dogs if she feels threatened and as I don't want to stuff up other people's stays it is hard to train to fix it.

Poppy - my Lexi is very unsure in stays is always looking sideways to see what is going to come and get her. In March this year at the Western Classic - we were in novice and the GSD next to us got up in the sit stays and stood over Lexi. The dog did not hurt her physically but psychologically it was the end of the world for poor Lex. The judge gave us three attempts to repeat the sit stay that night and I would have had more chance of winning first division lotto. It had such an effect that a few nights later I attempted to do sit stays with lexi and the rest of my kids and she couldn't cope with that - she got up, or dropped. In the end I had to go right back to basics and with just Lexi build her confidence by putting her in a stay and going back and continually rewarding. I then added Blaize into the picture as she is my most reliable dog and once again started close in and kept going in and rewarding - then I added, Scoota and beans and in the end at home in the back yard we didn't have an issue.

I then took it back out on the road - and once again it fell to bits - with my dogs she was OK - but introduce another dog and it was anxious and would drop in the sit stay. I then started training with a guy with a GSD who also had stay issues. At this point I decided not to do sit stays at all and I would put lexi at one end of the lineup and in the middle I had one of my other dogs and then we had the GSD. We kept a good 2m between dogs. and I stood relatively close - kept giving her verbal encouragement and going back and rewarding. Both dogs have come a long way. I can now have Lexi and the GSD side by side. When I go out of sight - I will often come back and reward or come into sight and give verbal praise. I have also introduced a verbal release cue (FREE) - so I will go back to the dogs and say exercise finished, three blind mice and eventually I will give my release word and they have now learnt that until I give this word they don't move.

So my advice is to get her out with other reliable dogs. Don't be in a rush to do full distance stays - stay close and continue to reward both with food and verbal praise. Increase duration before going back to square one and increase distance.

Good luck - I think sit stays should be outlawed

[Ptolomy]

My problem..... well Bean's really

In the COP (change of positions) I give the down signal and she takes a huge step to her right and then drops.

She has always done this. If I stand her next to a post or a cone then it doesn't happen, but usually in a trial you don't get the chance to use a post or a cone and it usually costs us a couple of points.

Any suggestions on how to cure this ......please

Hi Ptolomy, love your Tollers!! Agility person here, but you did say anyone can chime in.

Have you tryed teaching her to drop on a target to fix this? rather than giving her a barrier to avoid it will give her something to aim for, I find this sort of training gives the dog a better understanding of what you really want and is much easier to fade sucessfully than barriers. I would start from the beginning and free shape her to go to and drop on the target, make sure reward is given while in position, this should help her understand that the location of her drop is important, add your cue and then once you have proofed that to a few locations, position her for the COP on the target and practise it with the target for a long while before fading. With all the reinforcement for dropping you will have to do lots of rewarding for not anticipating especially while the target is still there. Try to use a target that is not too big of a visual cue for the dog to make it easier to fade.

Here is one of my problems. I've been trying to teach my young dog a good solid stand stay, which she does well except that she has a tendancy to move one or both her back feet alittle, like she is shifting her weight or something. I've only taken it to the stage where I will reward her very very often and only move 1-2 meters away from her max, continually stuffing treats in her face, I've added some distractions also, generally her foot movment occurs when I am near her and doesn't seem to have anything to do with distractions. I've tryed very hard to only reward her stays up until the point she moves a foot, resetting her once she moves but no improvment, I don't think she is aware she is doing it. She is training for agility and I have done alot of rear end awareness work with her already (ladder work, standing in her water bowl, perch work, 2o2o contact training, walking on her hind legs and early handstand work) but we have hit a bit of a wall and I don't know how to fix this. Any suggestions?

Hey Casima - thanks for the suggestions. I have to confess for I have sinned - I have never taught any of my dogs to target So are you suggesting a piece of carpet or something similar and if she drops off the carpet then I give a NRM? And then the idea being to gradually make the carpet smaller and smaller taking it to all different locations. Hmm if it is then I think it could work!!!!

As for your sit stays problem - most dogs have issues with their front feet not their back ones. Have you had the dog checked to make sure that she isn't sore while sitting?

To teach stays both stand and sit we play the steady feet game - so with the dog in a sit - we bring a bit of food towards the dogs face and if it moves then the food goes away - so we are almost tempting the dog to move and when it does the food goes away. Then we bring the food in at all diffent angles, heights and speeds, we then progress to dropping food and once again if the dog moves we step on the food and it can't get it. Its amazing how fast the dog learns that to get the reward the dog must stay still. Its my guess that if there are no issues soreness wise your dog doesn't understand that sit stays means keep you bum on the ground and don't move, so perhaps the above exercise might make it clearer to the dog.

A question for you.....I am not sure what stage of agility you are up to - but if you are doing sequencing - if you leave your dog at the start line in a sit - does the dog lift its backside, wriggle or move???

[Ptolomy]

If you place the db at her feet and standing right in front of her and ask her to fetch - does she still reposition and chew?

Yes, so there goes one of my theories I guess.

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If the dog can't do it at this point there is no way it will be able to sit there and hold after having fetched the db.

Have you tried handing the dog the db and rewarding before she has a chance to reposition? If you are too slow and she does - then giving a NRM?

[ness]

Shame on you Ptolomy - I didn't even think you wouldn't have taught your kids to target . Not sure if you would want a nose target or a paw target - either would work. I made my target out of astroturf or otherwise you could fade to something like a clear plastic lid.

[ness]

Since I might as well post a problem into this thread - any ideas on getting attention at the start peg. The dog can be paying perfect attention outside the ring and the moment we go into the ring she starts to sticky beak around and every time we go back to the peg between exercises its the same. Its almost become a cue to switch off if you like.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Shame on you Ptolomy - I didn't even think you wouldn't have taught your kids to target . Not sure if you would want a nose target or a paw target - either would work. I made my target out of astroturf or otherwise you could fade to something like a clear plastic lid.

I think my astroturf got lost in the mail. ;)

[dogdude]

She starts as soon as soon as it hits her mouth while static, but stops on command. I will go back to basics, and try to catch her quicker.

Thanks for your thoughts Ptolomy. I will have plenty of time to work on it during the off season I suppose. There is only two trials left for us this year, and her title will have to wait till the Autumn anyway (all going well). I can still teach her open work over the break.

[JulesP]

dogdude have you tried waiting out the chomping? As in not taking it until her mouth is still. Have you played with different dumbbells?

Pip I would be getting the dumbbell before the dog had a chance to chuck it and would be making a massive fuss when it was in my hand.

Ptolomy Poppy was so freaked after the incident that she wouldn't stay with my other dogs either. I hope I get her in the ring.

I stopped Poppy moving in the COP by asking her to wait just before I gave the down command. Just to reinforce that I want down right there exactly were you are.

[caffy]

Erny - I am standing in front of the dog - a usual COP is about 5m approximately - but as I said she will still move sideways if I reduce the distance to 3m.

Perhaps even 3m is too far and I need to go even closer and reward when she gets it right and give an oh too bad so sad when she gets it wrong.

The one problem I have in trying to solve this issue, or any issue, is that tollers don't do well with repetition - they either start throwing all sorts at you because they think they have got it wrong - or the bigger problem is that they start anticipating - and I have visions of her dropping as I walk away to leave her

I haven't read all the suggestions but my first thought would be to just do it informallly and ask for a drop with hand signal and throw food to her left side. Bit like the 2 food game but keep throwing to the opposite side she drops and ask for quick ones only. Keep it upbeat and fun....even use the i squeak ;)

[Ptolomy]

dogdude have you tried waiting out the chomping? As in not taking it until her mouth is still. Have you played with different dumbbells?

Waiting her out I believe is not a good idea as you are setting up a behaviour chain pick up the db, chomp, stop chomping and get rewarded