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'building Better Dogs' Seminar 11 Feb 2010


mlc
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Some thoughts...

People have complained about the title of the seminar, Building better dogs" - but isn't that what breeders are doing anyway? Always striving to improve the breed and not breed from poor specimans?

People say this sort of seminar will result in government legislating all sorts of rules and tests that breeders must do for all dogs to meet some 'insert batteries here' type dog. As there are many debilitating and even lethal genetic issues that dogs can carry, and government hasn't legislated about such things, why is it such a certainty in some people's minds that government would legislate about temperament?

People say they want their purebred dogs to stay exactly as they are, yet old photos of many breeds show breeds have changed (and in some cases as recent as only 40 years ago).

People say this is about breeding dogs to reduce their drive and changes what they were meant to be bred for - can I point people out to the many threads of arguments about "bench vs working lines" I have seen on these forums. Seems to me breeders of show line working dogs have already done some fiddling.

People say they have beagles with perfect recall and the 'sniffy' gene is not a problem - yet I have seen more threads that I can poke a stick at from beagle owners asking about fully-fenced parks and even advice on the beagle rescue website that these dogs should never be left off-lead due to their sniffiness.

People say that it is all about training and socialisation - yet I was chatting with a breeder just the other day and a dog she had kept for stud was proving to be somewhat DA. She told me she thought she should not breed from him afterall as she was not happy with his temperament. And this a dog raised in the breeders own home!

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KK:

People say they want their purebred dogs to stay exactly as they are, yet old photos of many breeds show breeds have changed (and in some cases as recent as only 40 years ago).

I want them to stay exactly as they are. Purebred. I don't think that crossbreeding is the be all and end all of solving society's issues with dogs.

As you point out, WITHIN breeds it is possible to breed a degree of variety. WITHIN breeds it is possible to modify some traits. Why do we need to change that?

And as for the Beagle issue, if managing a breed that may (repeat may) have some issues offlead will be a major headache, then don't bloody buy one!!

Edited by poodlefan
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I want them to stay exactly as they are. Purebred. I don't think that crossbreeding is the be all and end all of solving society's issues with dogs.

I wasn't arguing "for" crossbreeding - just pointing out breeds have changed anyways, including the lowering of drive when breeding away from working lines.

It makes me think of the book Marley and Me - I am guessing that what the yanks refer to as a "field" labrador (which is what Marley turned out tobe) they are meaning working lines bred. At some point in the book the author notes the differences (not just physical) between Marley and those nice labs bred along 'english' lines.

Perhaps sand grubber can tell me more?

And as for the Beagle issue, if managing a breed that may (repeat may) have some issues offlead, then don't bloody buy one!!

I haven't :laugh: But unfortunately there are a lot of dumped beagles out there :thumbsup:

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Say what? I run a boarding kennel. I get pedigree, DD, BYB ('purebred' but not pedigree), and oops litter derivations in more-or-less equal numbers. Some of them (from each category) are clearly unhappy, or clearly make their owners and/or their owner's neighbours unhappy through temperament/behavioural traits. Too excitable. Demand too much stimulation. Dig holes, bark, chew everything, destroy their dog beds, even a few who deliberately crap in their beds or pee in their feeding dishes. Some interact poorly with other dogs. I am not saying there is anything wrong with these dogs. Many of them would have been great working dogs with huge stamina and high intelligence. The problem is that they have ended up in suburban backyards, and they don't fit into the place they've ended up. You may call it 'dumming down' . . . although sometimes low drive doesn't mean 'dumb'. But whatever words are used . . . I think it advisable that there is realistic understanding that most of the pups born -- that is, those who find caring homes -- will end up in the suburbs. Some temperaments/behavioural tendencies do better than others in the suburbs. Pedigree dog breeders need to recognise this in their breeding programmes . . . or else avoid placing pups as pets in suburban households. The converse may also be true . . . if you want to breed working dogs, you may want to selectively breed out couch potatoes with mild drive. The point is, breeding for temperament is important and improvement of the science behind breeding for temperament can serve us all.

I was going to mention this before in your previous posts sandgrubber, but do you realise you can have dogs which present as 10/10 for 'bidability' which are extremely DA

or would kill or main a person but still be extremely bidable?

What makes you think that the dogs you describe above would make good working dogs?

:thumbsup:

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I haven't :laugh: But unfortunately there are a lot of dumped beagles out there :thumbsup:

Does that make it a fault of the breed or the buyers?

dontchya know poody

that if dem breeders didn't breed 'em with a nose then they wouldn't get dumped?!

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I thought you bred and brought up better dogs, not built them?

Maybe start building better people with better values and responsibility first and then with their newfound appreciation and understanding of all creatures great and small many welfare issues may be averted.

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I thought you bred and brought up better dogs, not built them?

Maybe start building better people with better values and responsibility first and then with their newfound appreciation and understanding of all creatures great and small many welfare issues may be averted.

Well bugger me, it's only taken 13 pages

at last some common sense

Edited by SBT123
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I haven't :laugh: But unfortunately there are a lot of dumped beagles out there :thumbsup:

Does that make it a fault of the breed or the buyers?

dontchya know poody

that if dem breeders didn't breed 'em with a nose then they wouldn't get dumped?!

If people could only buy them from someone who told them the truth about the breed and vetted owner suitability, dumpage rates would plummet too. :rofl:

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I haven't :laugh: But unfortunately there are a lot of dumped beagles out there :thumbsup:

Does that make it a fault of the breed or the buyers?

Perhaps you should add "breeder" into that question, cos they should certainly be upfront to buyers about what to expect from the breed. But yes, the buyer should ultimately take responsibility. If they want to make a new law they really should make one against people dumping animals just because they are not 'convenient'.

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I thought you bred and brought up better dogs, not built them?

Maybe start building better people with better values and responsibility first and then with their newfound appreciation and understanding of all creatures great and small many welfare issues may be averted.

Well bugger me, it's only taken 13 pages

at last some common sense

True - but alas when fiddling with humans it's called eugenics and is somewhat frowned upon.

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I thought you bred and brought up better dogs, not built them?

Maybe start building better people with better values and responsibility first and then with their newfound appreciation and understanding of all creatures great and small many welfare issues may be averted.

kittykat:

"If there was a pound for two year old toddlers... how full would that be I wonder?"

Edited by lilli
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I haven't :laugh: But unfortunately there are a lot of dumped beagles out there :thumbsup:

Does that make it a fault of the breed or the buyers?

Perhaps you should add "breeder" into that question, cos they should certainly be upfront to buyers about what to expect from the breed. But yes, the buyer should ultimately take responsibility. If they want to make a new law they really should make one against people dumping animals just because they are not 'convenient'.

I would be willing to bet that many of these 'dumped' dogs are BYB or puppy shop buys. No Beagle breeder I know would miss out on telling people about the fact they can be unreliable offlead. Too many have heard the sad stories of pups killed by cars because owners failed to heed their advice.

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Just as an aside.....

I am a post-grad student at The University of Melbourne and also work under the AWSC banner. I will not be presenting at the seminar as my research is only in it's preliminary stages but I will be attending. My PhD is looking at human-canine interactions in animal shelters, veterinary clinics etc so if anyone would like to have a chat with me about my research in further detail (and what I hope to get out of it) please feel free to come and say hello. PM me if you don't know me by sight or wouldn't recognise me without a Dalmatian :thumbsup: Out of interest we also have a couple of Masters students who are looking at aversion learning in dogs and separation anxiety in SBT's - they are not presenting (as far as I know and are probably too early in their projects like me) but may also be there on the day.

Cheers

Sally.

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my breeder told me everything, and really stressed the facts. she also told me that *if it didn't work out* to call her immediately. Well, its worked out and you would have to kill me first to get Charlie off me. I can't walk him off lead, and he has his nose to the ground sometimes (big deal!) but he is the most beautiful, good natured, kind calm and loving dog - a beagle :-) We will be getting another one soon, fingers crossed xo

* i know my comment isnt really relevent, i'm just a passionate beagle lover and think they should stay as they are :-)

Edited by jacquilee81
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