More On Raw / Barf Feeding

[KAT1]

Hi All,

Well, after reading "Give your dog a bone" and freaking out about having fed my puppy dry kibble up til now, I have taken the plunge and have started giving him on a RAW food diet. I have started over the past week weening him off the kibble, towards the raw meaty bones (RMB) and veggies, and already I have noticed a HUGE difference in his output. He has always had messy poo, and I did try a few different premium kibbles, to no success, but now he has these beautiful small doggy nuggets which are, dare I say, a pleasure to pick up? His coat is also feeling softer (after only a week)!

I went to the butcher and bought chicken carcasses, chicken necks, kidneys, lamb flaps, whole sardines, I bought myself a juicer so that I could give him veggie pulp (and myself yummy juice which is a bonus!) and have bought some flax seed oil and kelp powder. I still have to add eggs and cottage cheese to his diet (supermarket today). I am going to try and get a copy of "The BARF diet" but until it arrives I have a few questions which I hope someone will be able to help me with:

1. I read that I should be feeding him 60% RMB and 40% veggies. Does this mean that at every meal I should have that ratio? For example, I feed him twice a day, so does it mean I should feed just RMB (60% in weight of the total fed that day) in the morning, and in the evening a veggie meal (40% in weight for that day), or a mixture of 60:40 at each meal? 2. I am basing the amount of RMB and veggies on 2% of his weight. Is this correct?

3. Is there something I can do to make the veggie meal more appealing? I have discovered not to put chicken necks and veggies together, as the chicken necks are eaten but the veggies are left behind. Maybe adding eggs and cottage cheese?

4. Should I make patties with a mixture of veggies and mince? I read somewhere that mince doesn't have the benefits of RMB. Is it worth doing?

5. Is it possible to freeze the veggie pulp produced by a juicer without destroying the nutrients?

6. How much offal (kidneys/liver) should I feed based on his weight? and how often?

Thanks in advance. I'm sure more questions will crop up as we progress.

One other question: which supplements do you use and where do you buy them from? Are vitamins for humans ok?

Edited February 14, 2010 by KAT1

[corvus]

I feed one meal of mince with vegies and then one meal of bones, usually chicken wings each days. Once a week I give them a meal of organs, usually liver and kidney together, but Kivi is not really into his kidney.

In the vegie mix I add yoghurt and/or cottage cheese with some Brewer's yeast and kelp powder. I freeze it and just dollop a couple of spoons of it on the mince and mix it in each day.

I kinda stopped paying much attention to weights and ratios. I don't think vegies are an essential part of the diet, so they only get a small amount. Of the meat they get I try to make about 50% edible bones. I went this way because of my interpretation of how much muscle meat versus bone they should get. I think that raw feeding is very open to interpretation. As long as you've got the basics you should be able to tweak it if something seems not right. I don't weigh what I give them because it's pretty hard with the bones as they are so variable. I just guess and if they start getting a little too porky I cut back and if they are looking skinny I give them more.

Remember that you're just feeding a dog. There are a lot of right answers!

[Tilly]

What sort of mince meat are you feeding?

Edited February 13, 2010 by Tilly

[felix]

Kidneys and livers are really good, but some dogs don't like the smell (like mine).

But, I tricked him. I give them to him frozen and he eats them before they melt.

[SBT101]

I have done alot of research also and also alot of trial and error. Now after 4 months I have everything right and my dogs have never looked better.

I do ratio of 40% rmb, 40% muscle meat, 10% vegie slops with added supliments and 10% offal mix.

They used to turn their noses up at the vegie mix, but I added a spoonful of natural yoghurt and mixed it in altogether and I now have no problems at all.

The muscle meat I am feeding is mainly donkey, roo and goat and sometimes they will have heart. RMB is minced chicken carcusses and also bones (roo tails, chicken necks, lamb bones)

It might take a while for your pup to get used to it and for you to get it right, but the outcome is

Good Luck.

[Diva]

I'll add my 2 cents worth. 40% vegies seems very high to me. I seldom feed more than 5-10% vegies, you may well want to do more than that and many do but 40% seems on the high side. I doubt it would cause a problem in itself, but it displaces other nutritional sources in the diet.

By all means feed most of the meat on the bone, eg RMB's, but if they are not all that meaty you can add some pure muscle meat source, something like heart is good, probably pet mince too but I don't use mince much. Too much straight bone too often without enough meat accompanying it can cause things like constipation, and doesn't give enough nutrition.

5% of the diet should be liver. That's important. Another 5% or more is ideally another offal source, like kidneys, brains, pancreas - kidneys are the easiest to get. Eggs and sardines are good occassional additions.

Variety in meat sources is also important - feed as many different meat types as you can conveniently and cost-effectively get and your dogs like. Aiming to use at least 2 different meats a week including at least one red meat is good, but more is even better.

Remember that you are aiming for balance over time, as in everything in the right proportions over a week or so. Don't feel you have to knock yourself out trying to make complicated single meals thinking every meal must be perfect, if it feels really really complicated you are probably getting carried away

Edited February 14, 2010 by Diva

[Red Fox]

The ratios (according to Billinghurst) should be 60% RMB, 15% veg, 5% fruit, 10% offal, 10% other (dairy/eggs/fish/suplements).

You dont need to feed that in every meal though, it is more about balance over time.

You might also find that you need to adust the ratios slightly to suit your dog. I tend to feed roughly 50% RMB, 30% muscle meat and fish, 5-10% vegie slops mix (pureed fruit/veg/eggs/suplements) the other 10% is made up of things like offal, yogurt, fresh raw eggs, supplements and the like.

But thats not set in stone and apart from the 50% RMB's every day it really does vary...

In answer to your questions-

1. I read that I should be feeding him 60% RMB and 40% veggies. Does this mean that at every meal I should have that ratio? For example, I feed him twice a day, so does it mean I should feed just RMB (60% in weight of the total fed that day) in the morning, and in the evening a veggie meal (40% in weight for that day), or a mixture of 60:40 at each meal? 2. I am basing the amount of RMB and veggies on 2% of his weight. Is this correct?

Balance over time, not all in one meal.

Feeding 2% of the body weight is correct for adult dogs I think? Puppies need more. To be honest though it depends on the dog. Best way to feed - if your dog looks too skinny feed more and if he looks to fat feed less

3. Is there something I can do to make the veggie meal more appealing? I have discovered not to put chicken necks and veggies together, as the chicken necks are eaten but the veggies are left behind. Maybe adding eggs and cottage cheese?

Eggs (including their shells), natural yogurt, cottage cheese, and sardines or mackeral are all good.

4. Should I make patties with a mixture of veggies and mince? I read somewhere that mince doesn't have the benefits of RMB. Is it worth doing?

You can if you use pet mince which contains bone, ie minced chicken frames. BUT if your dog is happy to eat whole RMB's then that's MUCH better all round IMO.

5. Is it possible to freeze the veggie pulp produced by a juicer without destroying the nutrients?

I do I do a big batch every 6 weeks or so then freeze it. So much easier

6. How much offal (kidneys/liver) should I feed based on his weight? and how often?

It should be around 10% of his diet. How often you feed it is up to you but once or twice a week should be okay.

Oh, and 'The BARF Diet' is pretty much a simplified version of 'Give You Dog A Bone'

The only real difference is that it tells you how to make the patties and also gives some info on feeding cats a Raw diet.

There is a book called "Grow Your Pup With Bones' that might be better if you have a young dog

Hope that helps you.

[KAT1]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for that advice

I will reduce the amount of veggies and increase muscle meat and other things.

Another question I had is which supplements to you use?

Also, where do you buy them from? For vitamin supplements can you use human grade from the chemist?

I just realised that my dog eats better than I do!!!

[Diva]

I don't usually use supplements.

The only one I have used from time to time is a fish oil or other omega 3 source.

[Got Spots]

In my house I am a bit more relaxed and aim for balance over time.

Lots of fresh bones, sardines, eggs, yoghurt, veges, fresh meat, minced chicken frames , casserole (kidney, liver etc made by local people for dogs), omega oil and whatever else I can think of or have lying around that is suitable.

I am a bit too busy to do the percentage so took a more relaxed out look

I initially used Dr B's to get the allergies under control and if others look after my dogs.

I also use VAN but not every night and at much reduced amounts

Have had great results - allergies much resolved and coats are great

[JRzipper]

Hi Kati,

I've been feeding raw for a decade and would never go back to commercial dog food. Learning ratios is a good way to start but as your confidence and experience grows you will probably start relaxing a bit and understanding how "balance over time" works. A couple of key things that I think are important are a) a juicer with grunt, b) a bloody great freezer and c) some standby for when you miscalcuate and run out of frozen meals. I always have heaps of canned sardines on hand as well as a bag of VAN. Freezing veges is quite OK. There is some nutrient loss but most of the goodness is retained if frozen immediately.

One of the best places to find the sort of supplements you might be using for a raw diet is Greenpet. They are quick and efficient and pretty good value. Being able to buy in bulk keeps the cost down. You can find them online at www.greenpet.com.au.

Just a final thought about veges which is always a contentious issue amongst raw feeders. I feel that veges/fruit aren't really essential but they have a number of advantages

1. They fill up dogs without adding too many calories (important in my breed that loves to eat but puts on weight easily)

2. They increase fluid intake, which is handy over summer

3. They help soften stools. Mine tend to have one hard stool (from their RMBs) and one softer stool (other meal incl veges) per day (God, the things we talk about LOL....)

4. My dogs love them, especially if I add other goodies like yoghurt, honey, cottage cheese or some table scraps! :-)

JK

[KAT1]

Thanks Everyone.

I appreciate your input.

I just gave Darcy some vegies with cottage cheese egg and yoghurt. He was licking the bowl for 10 mintues after finishing!

[kirst_goldens]

might sound a silly question but i am new to raw feeding as well and was wondering what VAN is??

[Red Fox]

might sound a silly question but i am new to raw feeding as well and was wondering what VAN is??

VAN = Vets All Natural http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/Completemix.html

Basically a vegie/grain/supplement mix that you soak and then mix with meat/RMB's to make a complete meal.

[kirst_goldens]

might sound a silly question but i am new to raw feeding as well and was wondering what VAN is??

VAN = Vets All Natural http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/Completemix.html

Basically a vegie/grain/supplement mix that you soak and then mix with meat/RMB's to make a complete meal.

So it is instead of pulping ur own veggies?? or another add on??

[JRzipper]

might sound a silly question but i am new to raw feeding as well and was wondering what VAN is??

VAN = Vets All Natural http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/Completemix.html

Basically a vegie/grain/supplement mix that you soak and then mix with meat/RMB's to make a complete meal.

So it is instead of pulping ur own veggies?? or another add on??

I only use it if I'm getting to the end of the week and can see I won't have enough frozen mince/vege meals to see me through until the weekend when I'll make up a new batch. In that case, I haul some mince (usually intended for us humans!) out of the freezer in the morning, and put some VAN in a bowl to soak and when I get home from work just toss them together and, waa laa, delish doggy dinner!

JK

[kirst_goldens]

ahh i see! thanks for that JR!

I was thinking why not jsut use veggies?? lol cheaper i would assume to as u do premake and freeze in smaller batches then to buy a product??

[Red Fox]

ahh i see! thanks for that JR!

I was thinking why not jsut use veggies?? lol cheaper i would assume to as u do premake and freeze in smaller batches then to buy a product??

It's much cheaper to do your own veggie mix, it would cost me less than $2 per week for a large dog.

But- VAN has it's advantages in the fact that it's very easy (just soak and mix with the appropriate amount of meat) and that it's 'complete' meaning that there are really no need for supplements or fussing around.

Another thing to consider is that VAN contains grains as well.

I've never bought VAN simply for the fact that I can't get it locally and I'm happy to do the veg mix

[Prydenjoy]

I cheat because I don't have time to make up and freeze BARF meals anymore, I use Canine Country BARF patties, I rotate all of the variety's so they have plenty of variety, and for even more variety every second or third night I use the VAN with some mince mixed with sardines, eggs, cottage cheese and whatever else I happened to throw in the mix. That is one meal a day, for the other meal they get chicken wings, not much variety in that meal but with such small dogs they can't actually eat many other types of bone! I like it because I have young, active dogs and they have the skin (fat) on them, also because they have a good meat to bone ratio. I give the older dog the more meaty end and the younger pup the tip with more skin/fat and a bit more bone.

[JRzipper]

ahh i see! thanks for that JR!

I was thinking why not jsut use veggies?? lol cheaper i would assume to as u do premake and freeze in smaller batches then to buy a product??

I normally stop at the local greengrocer on a Saturday morning and they'll have a box of outer lettuce leaves, or celery, apples, carrots etc looking a bit past their prime. I just buy the other veges fresh to make up a good variety and then home, to clean out the fridge and see what else I can add to the ingredient list, and then set myself up for a big juicing session while bopping along to the radio and surrounded by a circle of dogs waiting for the odd fruit or vege snack! LOL...

Having four Bullmastiffs makes any commercial product - raw or otherwise - a bit expensive to feed on a regular basis, and there is a weird kind of nurturing part of me that enjoys being up to my elbows mixing raw dog tucker that I've put together myself knowing that it's the best possible diet I can give to my dogs.

JK