Natsu chan Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 RS having seen a few heart stopping incidences in trials over the years I think something needs to be on the dog. It not just stays either I have seen dogs flying through multiple rings, causing chaos in their wake, dogs getting out of crates or off tethers and doing the same. There needs to be something to grab in those circumstances particularly at venues that are not fully fenced. You can't just grab them by the tail, assuming they have one. I have seen one steely nerved steward rugby tackle a dog in fairly desperate circumstances (the dog was doing heel free on an extremely wet day, the handler slipped and fell very heavily and almost squashed said dog who took off in a panic directly towards a very busy road). That's why the rule is there and for fairness it has to be the same for everyone. Most judges I have trialled under will not dock a handler for touching the collar unless they are obviously using it to correct the dog or drag it around. I have at least once needed to grab my own dog during ring work as a loose dog was charging through creating chaos, granted with mine it's not essential since there's plenty of hair to grab but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 On my dogs you would have bucklys of finding anything to grab if they didn't wear collars. Suppose you would need to be fast enough to catch them in the first place but having thought long and hard about it, if they have a collar on and another dog attacks them at least I have something to grab onto so I have a chance of getting them away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Thanks guys, trust me I DO understand all these points! And I also completely understand the reasoning for running a dog naked in agility for safety (my preference is to run them without collar too), but agility is far more fast paced and arousing that loose running dogs are likely more possible and with no collars to "catch" them haven't seemed to be such an issue. So back to another question I asked then... if collars must be worn, why be penalised for touching them between exercises? And yes, you do get penalised here for doing so (if the judge catches you! I've seen dogs being dragged up into a sit position at the start of stays and didn't get docked any points!!!) My dogs collars get their hair stuck over them and I am forever fixing them up (even in the ring), just habit and one of those caring "motherly" things I find myself just doing for them Not sure if I've been docked for that before but it would annoy me to do an entire round and not be able to fix it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 (edited) Hmmm touching I guess it would depend on how they were touched, but a finger or the collar, maybe not, but hauling a dog or pulling it around yes. I train without colalrs generally as they do not wear them around the house and I train around here a lot. When I go to dog training I take them from the car to the crate and the crate straight into warning up, training etc so many times I have forgotten to put a colalr on them at training as well. I quite often don't realise until I go to take them for a toilet wander before putting them in the car to go home. I would like to be able to do an obedience trial without a collar as I do not have a need for one as such, but can see why they wear them and why there is the rule no touching as they should be at a level where it doesn't need to be touched but is there just as a potential safety thing. Although Lewis got taken out by a dog at training a few weeks ago and no collar would have prevented it as we were doing jumping drills (therfore no collar) and he was one stride from taking off for a jump and got skittled out of nowhere and neither of us saw it coming. Oh and RS I am glad mine don't have coat or I would be straightening their collars as well so I full understand where you are coming from there Edited November 11, 2011 by OSoSwift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 RS its actually stated in the Rule book page 11... Physical Guidance: such as putting the dog into place or restraint between exercises, must be penalised Lots of people do lots of things that may or may not be in the rules and yes I have seen lots of collar grabs in trials... ;) Take it as a training challenge. Can you get and maintain control in a training situation without resorting to using the collar. This is where mock trials can be useful to iron out these little glitches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 If I really thought my dog was about to do a bunk, then yes I would grab the collar, but other than that I would call them and not touch. Although I did do something that I looked back and shook my head at my first trial back.......Rommi was being slow sitting at the start post and I put one finger on her bottom, very lightly and quickly, but I do wonder how many points that cost me as I didn't even realise I did it until I watched the video of the trial. I am going to slap my hand if I try that again!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 The whole physical restraint thing reminds me of an "incident" at a trial. I lined Ness up for a sendaway in UD, Dave Rumble was the judge and hmm for some reason either she didn't stand on my verbal so I did what I do in training and slid my foot back alongside her back leg to pop her into a stand. Not once did I touch her but did I get a "talking" after the exercise was completed. I then turned her around and showed him what I did . He had no problem with it when he saw it but because he was on the opposite side to the dog god knows what he thought I was doing to her . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 RS its actually stated in the Rule book page 11... Physical Guidance: such as putting the dog into place or restraint between exercises, must be penalised Lots of people do lots of things that may or may not be in the rules and yes I have seen lots of collar grabs in trials... ;) Take it as a training challenge. Can you get and maintain control in a training situation without resorting to using the collar. This is where mock trials can be useful to iron out these little glitches. I'm not debating that it isn't in the rules, just engaging a discussion on everyone's thoughts on it I challenge you all to take Ruby into the ring, and see how much hard work it is between exercises No I don't collar grab her in the ring unless I have had a memory lapse (and a lot of the time it is to adjust the collar and play with her, it isn't so much a restraint action), we play a lot of hand touch/spining games and I pat her body to keep her with me, but we are all capable of lapses! It's just !@#$%ing hard work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But I wouldn't have her any other way. That's what makes her my Ruby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathq Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Can relate RS Coco is hard work between exercises better now that she's 5. I do lots of hand touches, push ups and high fives. Have used these as release rewards for awhile in training now so she gets relaxed rewarded ad well between exercises which helps. I also use a check chain as my collar, brings a conditioned response of working time. Doesn't tangle in coat and is short enough to not fall over her head when she puts her nose down. Besides if I wear bling so can she )) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Ruby is almost 5 and I can't see it getting any easier with age I find it hard to mix between rewarding and controlling. For example, if a steward enters the ring to give me the dumbell or lead, I put Ruby in a sit or a down and I approach the steward on my own. If I put her in a stationary position after each exercise to prevent her running up to judge/stewards in her excitement, she isn't really getting rewarded between exercises. I do intentionally razz her up between exercises which doesn't help, but I do it as reward. So knowing how much to do is still a work in progress, and probably always will be But I do the same razzing up with Millie between exercises and she doesn't bugger off to greet others like Ruby does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Just a thought RS if your dogs scratch at collars or they get covered in hair etc why don't you get a different collar? Something small and lightweight that won't irritate your dogs or make you want to touch it. :-) I have absolutely no sentiments about collars and don't really think there's a reason to wear them but there isn't really a reason not to either. I sort of understand the saftey argument for agility. But to be honest, collars should be snug so the chances of one getting caught on equiptment would be fairly minimal. As for working a dog between exercises, I often pop my dog into a drop or sit stay and step a few paces away and leave her there. That way she doesn't need to be at attention but is still working to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 I hear you on the just enough to reward them and keep them up and not enough they rack off!! Lewis LOVES to be ablet o jump on me and have his chest slapped. That is all fine and good, keeps him up, but very ocassionaly he thinks it also means woohoo jackpot blue ball time and so far a quick firm Lewis has been enough to stop him.....so far!!!! Rommi has very nearly started a big loop for a zoomie but I managed to get her back before she got into warp speed and her ears turned off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedazzledx2 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 You forget that I had my very own Ruby to contend with Must be the name :rofl: She was very like your girl and was over friendly and would mug anyone given half a chance. I lost 5 points for touching her collar in a trial once...very expensive!!! She taught me so much the witch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Any suggestions on what I can do to improve Strauss's figure 8's cos they suck For the third or 4th trial in a row - he has lost the plot and there has been a tightening of the lead. yeah OK thats wasn't the only problem we had, but any suggestions will be welcomed :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 You forget that I had my very own Ruby to contend with Must be the name :rofl: She was very like your girl and was over friendly and would mug anyone given half a chance. I lost 5 points for touching her collar in a trial once...very expensive!!! She taught me so much the witch My very first CCD trial, I touched Ruby's collar setting her up for stays and A.H. saw me and whacked me with -10 points! Glad it happened in my first trial, because I've never touched a collar in stays, since!!! Ruby is teaching me so much and is such a handful sometimes but the handful dogs make it so worthwhile when it starts to come together The flip side though is at home, she is so placid it's almost boring!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Ptolomy What happens with figure 8s in training? My dog - tries to greet the figure 8 people - finds them extremely distracting - so your dog does better than my dog but I'm not trialing. All I can suggest is get as many strangers to volunteer to be training posts for you to practice doing cirlces and stops around. Given what was going on in the video - you wouldn't even need two people - one person seems to do it. I found my dog SFE improved heaps if I could just get one or two people a week at our favourite ovals - to go through the routine. Ie she just didn't understand what the job was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 (edited) Awww Strauss looked lovely! I feel funny offering suggestions because you're the one who has the answers for me Would more stationary work, especially turning right, help? Getting him to come around with your shoulder? Something I need to do more of myself to help with my stationary about turns. Lately in figure 8's I've been making an effort to stop subtlely checking if they are still with me, which was probably throwing my left shoulder ever so slightly back and maybe they could see the direction of my eyeballs So now I turn my body/head/shoulders around the figure 8 in the right direction and that so far has actually been helping to bring them around with me. If they are not there then tough! But that is a scary thought for me, I hate not knowing if they aren't there! Which is why in heelwork I walk crooked because I have my head at an angle that I can still see if they are there, without actually looking at them! I get the problem of Millie sometimes dropping her head down when I turn into her in the figure 8. Edited November 13, 2011 by RubyStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seita Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Any suggestions on what I can do to improve Strauss's figure 8's cos they suck For the third or 4th trial in a row - he has lost the plot and there has been a tightening of the lead. yeah OK thats wasn't the only problem we had, but any suggestions will be welcomed :D Circle work, both directions with a post in the middle with rewards for correct position. Or something I did with a past dog was just before you come back around the post into the figure of eight (where Strauss loses the plot) move into fast pace and run out of the Fo* and reward for catching up with you. Just looking at your video he starts to yawn part way through that Fo8 which might mean there's some stress there, perhaps go back a couple of steps and reward heavily for the basics in the 8. His other heelwork is lovely so it shouldn't be hard to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ptolomy Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Thanks girls for your suggestions - I really appreciate it and will incorporate them all into training over the coming sessions Training today - we were able to replicate the problem and we found there is a point going around the figure 8 post where Strauss drops back a bit (possibly something I trained him to do, dunno) and it is here that it goes pearshaped. Today we worked on reving him up and doing turns throwing food, playing tugging and clicking and treating just before the switch off point - so it will be interesting to see if he retains any of it :D He is such a cruisey laid back boy that he is doing a good job to heel as well as he does - but its all about perfection I keep telling him hmmm I wonder if thats why he runs outside and brings me a ball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I thought he looked great for a baby, I think he was running out of reward petrol at the figure of 8's, I would be bringing out the big gun rewards in, during and after the figure of 8's. Dog bless him in the SFE, ' oh Mum, you're back'. Very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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