Furx3 Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 Hi I have been lurking on these forums for some time, but today decided to post my very first topic . I have been smitten with a particular breed for nearing a decade and know that this breed is the one for me. I always planned for my next dog to be of this particular breed. The problem is, that this is a relatively rare breed and the active breeders of this breed (bar one), both in Australia and NZ, do not do what I would consider the necessary health testing of their breeding dogs..... And yes, they are listed on DOL and I have personally spoken with them all. They do give me their reasons for not testing, non of them valid in IMHO. I have been on the only Breeder who does test's waiting list for 7 years, a small breeder who has had no successful matings in this time, and no plans for any litters in the near future. So what now? Do I choose another breed from my 'reserve list' , from a 'reputable breeder'? I currently have two of these whom I love dearly and would not replace for all the world, but know that what I really want is my first choice breed if I am to get a third dog at all. Do I decide to take a puppy from a Breeder of the breed I want, who has not performed any health tests on their dogs? Very risky, and something I feel strongly about and lecture friends and family on !! Or do I choose to import from a country that will necessitate a stay in quarantine? This is something I am not at all keen on doing for a number of reasons, ranging from wanting to start my puppies life with our family from as close to 8 weeks of age as possible to ensure I am able to socialise the pup appropriately........ to feeling that the last place a young dog should be is in quarantine, which could potential damage the pups temperament! I also live in Qld, where there are no quarantine facilities so I would not be able to visit the dog regularly myself. So, what would you do? I would really love import experience stories too....good, bad and ugly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 Are the health issues that you are insisting upon them testing for an issue in the lines that are in this country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furx3 Posted June 12, 2010 Author Share Posted June 12, 2010 Are the health issues that you are insisting upon them testing for an issue in the lines that are in this country? Thanks Crisovar. I consider them basic tests - hip, elbow, eyes. The breeders I have spoken to, all the active breeders I can find in Aus/NZ (bar one), do none of these tests. And yes, this is a breed with know genetic issues and international breeders routinely test for a few more things also, including heart. One of the reasons I have been given for not testing is that the dogs bred in previous litters do not have any issues. This is a newish breed in Aus, so the history of it in this country is not a long one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 (edited) I would not let that stop me. Hips, elbows and eyes, depending on the breed, may be of little consequence. By this I mean, if the breed is so new to the country, then these breeders are unlikely to eliminate any dog from the gene pool until such a time as there is more to choose from. If they scored all the dogs in the country and they all came out with poor results.....what are they going to do? Abandon all their hard work and money invested? Not likely. So I can understand why they are not doing these tests at present. When there is a large gene pool in which to dip, you can pay to more picky. Edited June 12, 2010 by Rysup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 I think they should still do the tests, even if they don't have many dogs to pick and choose from, to give them a baseline to know if they're improving the breed or not over the years. And IMO it's hard to tell if it's in your lines or not, if you don't test for it. To answer the OP, I guess I would get an untested dog, if I really wanted one. I would probably go on to score my own dog's hips, elbows, etc - even if I wasn't breeding the dog - and provide those results to the breeder. That way you're helping the situation with the breed yourself by providing useful information. If you say overseas breeders test & Australasian ones don't, then another option is to get a breeder who uses import semen, from an overseas dog that has had the tests done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 I would not let that stop me. Hips, elbows and eyes, depending on the breed, may be of little consequence. By this I mean, if the breed is so new to the country, then these breeders are unlikely to eliminate any dog from the gene pool until such a time as there is more to choose from.If they scored all the dogs in the country and they all came out with poor results.....what are they going to do? Abandon all their hard work and money invested? Not likely. So I can understand why they are not doing these tests at present. When there is a large gene pool in which to dip, you can pay to more picky. I agree new . If the breed has such few breeders as you say then you have to start somewhere. When you on a list for 7 years with no successful matings are you saying not one bitch has fallen pregnant? As you would be fully aware there is no guarantee even if you import for a healthy pup so you would have to seriously weigh up the expense & risk there alone. The pups breed here would have to have serious issue before i headed done that path & just brought from overseas & one is presuming these breeders stock have come from overseas if the breed is relatively new ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 Yes but surely you would want to start with good dogs! What is the point of building up numbers if all you are doing is filling the country with dodgy dogs! Knowing the results of such tests doesn't mean you have to throw out all the bad ones, but rather you keep and breed the better ones. And if they are all bad, well you breed the best of the bad and aim for something better. If you don't know what you have, how can you improve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 If the breed is fairly new to Australia can you look further back in the bloodlines and find tested dogs from overseas? Maybe that could give you a general impression of the test results of the Aust lines - even if a little further back? And if you could find something you feel you could work with then you could end up being the groundbreaker in the breed and start testing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 With out knowing the breed and how severe or frequent (% of breed affected) of the diseases makes it almost impossible to make judgment. For example if HD is known at a high rate throughout the breed, then even if the parents are screened clear, it would still be fairly likely the pup could have HD (though affected parents do have a higher rate of producing HD affected pups than clear parents). So then the question really becomes how important is it to have a dog free of HD? If however the affected rate is fairly low, say less than 1 in 8 dogs, then having an affected parent will certainly increase the odds of an affected pup, so screened parents would greatly increase your chances of a normal pup. As to not wanting to eliminate any dogs from the gene pool so therefore there is no point in testing? I have never heard that method given merit in limited gene pools. If it is planned to use affected dogs due to limited gene pool, atleast knowing you are breeding an affected dog would allow you to pick an unaffected mate for the litter. For many diseases you can breed affected dogs to DNA normal dogs with no fear of producing the disease. Certainly breeding 2 dogs with HD together is going to produce many affected offspring, that is not doing the breed, the owners or the pups any favours. A good future for the breed would seem bleak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 I would not let that stop me. Hips, elbows and eyes, depending on the breed, may be of little consequence. By this I mean, if the breed is so new to the country, then these breeders are unlikely to eliminate any dog from the gene pool until such a time as there is more to choose from.If they scored all the dogs in the country and they all came out with poor results.....what are they going to do? Abandon all their hard work and money invested? Not likely. So I can understand why they are not doing these tests at present. When there is a large gene pool in which to dip, you can pay to more picky. Not a good enough excuse for me. If that is the issue then they should have purchased clear health score dogs in the first place and import semen for clear dogs to help the lines here survive not drive them into the ground PARTICULARLY when I assume the price of the pups would be quite a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furx3 Posted June 12, 2010 Author Share Posted June 12, 2010 Thanks everyone for the replies. Reading through them is kind of like following the discussion I have been having in my own head for over a year now. I understand that having clear parents doesn't mean that the puppy is guaranteed of not having issues, but it certainly provides a better starting point. I have contacted owners of pups from previous litters of two breeders also, who speak highly of the Breeders and their dogs and after support. I keep changing sides of the argument..........and given my preaching to all and sundry about the importance of buying from registered, reputable breeders who perform such tests, I feel like a bit of a hypocrite if I don't follow my own advice. I will make enquires to see if there has been any testing on previous generations (outside Aus) though.....thanks for that suggestion Aloysha......I feel like a dufus for not thinking it myself! The breed is a large breed, prone to HD too. I would "name the breed", but I also know that would identify me to the breeders, and I would hate to ruin any chance of getting a pup if I decide to buy from a breeder who doesn't test . In answer to one posters question, the breeder I have been on the wait list of has only attempted 4 matings in the time I have been waiting - two unsuccessful (AI), one phantom and one singleton pup, which she kept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 (edited) Yes but surely you would want to start with good dogs! What is the point of building up numbers if all you are doing is filling the country with dodgy dogs! Knowing the results of such tests doesn't mean you have to throw out all the bad ones, but rather you keep and breed the better ones. And if they are all bad, well you breed the best of the bad and aim for something better. If you don't know what you have, how can you improve? Hence my question, are there any problems in the lines that are here, the dogs came from somewhere? are the lines clear. Edited June 12, 2010 by Crisovar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 (edited) Yes but surely you would want to start with good dogs! What is the point of building up numbers if all you are doing is filling the country with dodgy dogs! Knowing the results of such tests doesn't mean you have to throw out all the bad ones, but rather you keep and breed the better ones. And if they are all bad, well you breed the best of the bad and aim for something better. If you don't know what you have, how can you improve? Hence my question, are there any problems in the lines that are here, the dogs came from somewhere? are the lines clear. You can not guess that because some near or distant relatives did not have HD that the line is clear of HD. In breeds where the disease has a moderate or high rate, lets say a rate of 1 in 8 or higher, it is pretty well accepted that most if not all dogs in the breed will carry at least some of the genes for HD. Therefore each pup, in each breeding and certainly every dog in the next generation has at least the breed average risk of having HD even if from several generations of clear parents. You must screen every dog that is bred and as many of it's siblings and it's offspring as possible in each generation if there is any hope to decrease the affected rate in the breed. Furbabies If any of the dogs or kennel lines come from the US or Canada, you can use the OFA search engine to look for the kennel. Keep in mind it is voluntary reporting and most people to not report affected dogs. Edited June 12, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 How long has the breed been in the country? I would assume these breeders imported tested, clear stock? But then again who knows. From a breeders perspective sure I would only buy from tested stock, but is this for a pet or show dog or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 Unless we now the breed it's pretty difficult to you help you. If the breeders aren't testing then I would assume they have clear lines. Some breeds can be clear by parentage depending on what they are testing for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arrow Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 I do feel for you Furbabies! Is emigrating an option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 Personally, I'd go to another breed. I am not willing to buy from a breeder who skips basic tests, for whatever reason. I will love whatever dog I get . . . and a year down the line I'd probably be glad I switched. I would also name the breed ... but I'm a loudmouth. All the hush hush stuff in the dog world does no good for canine health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-time Posted June 12, 2010 Share Posted June 12, 2010 (edited) If any of the local breeders offer a health guarantee or are prepared to offer a health guarantee, I'd go with that breeder. Similar situation in my breed however our original imports were all health tested before coming into the country and generally our population has been disease-free. It is only now that breeders are beginning to health test as we are now 4th, 5th, 6th generations and there have been more imports so when you start outcrossing to the extra lines, you just don't know what's going to crop up. My breeding stock is not all tested yet but I offer a health guarantee with my pups covering them for genetic health issues as do many of the breeders in my breed :D . Edited June 12, 2010 by t-time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted June 13, 2010 Share Posted June 13, 2010 (edited) If any of the local breeders offer a health guarantee or are prepared to offer a health guarantee, I'd go with that breeder. Similar situation in my breed however our original imports were all health tested before coming into the country and generally our population has been disease-free. It is only now that breeders are beginning to health test as we are now 4th, 5th, 6th generations and there have been more imports so when you start outcrossing to the extra lines, you just don't know what's going to crop up. My breeding stock is not all tested yet but I offer a health guarantee with my pups covering them for genetic health issues as do many of the breeders in my breed :D . What does your guarantee do for the owner with dog with a genetic disease? Is the guarantee more extensive for a disease you have not tested for yet? Edited June 13, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furx3 Posted June 13, 2010 Author Share Posted June 13, 2010 I wish emigrating was an option Arrow!!....That must really make me a crazy dog lady!! My next dog will be a pet, as well as an obedience/rally-o/agility dog. I teach obedience classes, so they would also become my 'demo' dog. I know that many of you really want to know the breed, but I will not disclose for reasons I have already mentioned plus more. I am not saying that these are 'bad' breeders either, just that testing is not high on their current agenda for many of the reasons some of you have mentioned - limited gene pool, limited lines with no faults in previous litters to date, experience in breeding, etc, etc, etc. My personal feeling is that all breeding dogs should be tested to give you a base line. You may choose to breed from dogs who have hip/elbow scores that I personally may not be happy to go with, but at least as a puppy purchaser I would have that information and could make an informed decision. I personally feel that a blanket decision to not undertake basic tests is a dis-service to prospective puppy buyers, who will be paying a lot of money for a puppy who will become part of their family....not to mention the impact not testing could potentially have on the breed in this country! I have seen a friends dog go through painful, debilitating HD and would not want to watch a dog I loved go through it. No health guarantees offered by the active breeders either. Although they do say they will provide lifetime 'support'. One gives a 1 month money back guarantee, but it is unlikely you would know in that period if you have any issues with the pup.....and would have fallen in love with it and not want to give it back either I would think. I have spoken with breeders in the US/Canada who advise not to touch an untested dog of this breed given the genetic issues that are surfacing worldwide. So, other breeds that may suit us........there are two, neither of which come close to this breed in my eyes. As I have mentioned I have two dogs currently (from my reserve list) that I chose because I haven't been able to get the breed of my dreams. I love them both dearly, and they do obedience and agility with me, but they are not my first choice breed. What about importing and quarantine? Anyone have any stories to tell in that regard? Although, this would be a really expensive way to go for a pet!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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