superminty Posted October 23, 2010 Author Share Posted October 23, 2010 Training question: How do people start to teach a drive and do you put a different command on for inside flanks? I know how to do it in theory, does that count? Remembering that balance point is simply the point where the stock are going where you want them to go - well, I name balance point. So once I say "right there", my dog should know that I want the stock to stay on that line until I give a flank command. Therefore, for driving, I simply ( ) give my balance cue when the stock are pointing in the right direction and voila! Line is set and the dog should keep them on that line until further notice. I have started doing this with ducks because they drive easier and I only drive for a step or two before calling my dog off. I am also using a fence to start with to help the stock stay on line. I taught the balance cue initially in a fetch position, and it's a work in progress I don't really have flanking commands yet (oops) but won't be using a different command for inside flanks. I expect my dog to stay on contact at all times, so whether he crosses behind or in front of me will depend on where I am standing in relation to the stock's flight zone. Clear as mud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 Remembering that balance point is simply the point where the stock are going where you want them to go - well, I name balance point. So once I say "right there", my dog should know that I want the stock to stay on that line until I give a flank command. Therefore, for driving, I simply ( ) give my balance cue when the stock are pointing in the right direction and voila! Line is set and the dog should keep them on that line until further notice.I have started doing this with ducks because they drive easier and I only drive for a step or two before calling my dog off. I am also using a fence to start with to help the stock stay on line. I taught the balance cue initially in a fetch position, and it's a work in progress I don't really have flanking commands yet (oops) but won't be using a different command for inside flanks. I expect my dog to stay on contact at all times, so whether he crosses behind or in front of me will depend on where I am standing in relation to the stock's flight zone. Clear as mud? That is a different method to what I have heard, but I can see the sense of it. I am leaning to using inside flank commands as Jazz by choice will go out and around behind me. No idea why, not strictly instilled it in her (little cow will cross on a cast so she will go in there, lol) but if I give her a flank command she will come back around behind me. Piper also found it really stressful but I was trained by a 3 sheep man with her and the space between the stock and I was STRICTLY no go zone so inviting her in had her quite worried. I can't really remember how we got her going, and she never really did a true drive. It takes lots and lots of commands to get Piper to do it as she will try and creep back to the head of the stock at every opportunity. I do remember we did some work in a fairly narrow race with a large number of sheep and used the fact she didn't like forcing between stock and a fence to help keep her behind. Half my issue with Jazz is lack of training opportunities. Once every 3 or 4 months is not sufficient to really get it happening. What it was suggested I do with her to get her comfortable flanking between the sheep and I was to put her on a wait and cross her instead of having her cross me. So I get her to drop and walk behind her from 1 side to the other and send her as I pass her. She can cope with it with me even a half a step past her but as soon as I am level she will circle around me or get stressed and not do anything. She also has a nice walk up at most angles but I discovered she doesn;t have a full understanding as if it is in a dead straight line in front of me she won't do it. Unlike Piper who would fight me to get to the head if I ask Jazz to do it when she is in conflict she tends to just lay there and not move from the stop usually with some head turning and lip licking so it is very gently does it with her. I am fairly sure most of it is due to feeling like she is going to lose them and the limited training times we get meaning she doesn't learn that it is ok for them to move away and become confortable with that. At the time I was training driving with Piper I had stock access probably 3 weeks out of 4 and it makes a very big difference. So far Jazz has had more times on stock inside the trial arena than out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 Trudi had us driving with a long lead Piper. The sheep were on a fence and we had the dogs on a really long lead. We were behind but also further into the paddock. All the dogs seemed to get the hang of that pretty easily. Trudi said she pretty much started with driving like that when the dogs were pups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted October 23, 2010 Share Posted October 23, 2010 (edited) I don't know how much help I can be in driving even though Cole is now consistently passing in advanced A and trialling advanced B (we need to improve the shed). I don't have a different command for inside flanks but I find Cole won't cross if he is close to me. I trained initially I did what it sounds like Piper is doing - I initiated the cross not the dog. Basically when I needed the dog to cross in front of me I positioned myself so I did the cross. When you first do this the dog seems to do a double take and say "what the f**k" but they soon realise that it is acceptable. I also worked on the fenceline drives before the drives in the open. Another exersise I did when I first started driving was to get Cole to hold his sheep in the middle of the arena while i walked around the arena. This was from Derek Scrimgeors videos (slighly amended) to teach him he could still control his sheep even though he was off balance and basically by himself with the sheep. Cole does have a very good straight walk up. I sometimes wonder if the ease I was able to teach Cole to drive is genetic. Cole has been bred for ISDS style trialling which is mostly driving (and his gr granfather was 2 times international driving champion) rather than Ausrtalian 3 sheep trialling which is fetching. ETA I am very lucky in the amount of time I get to train on sheep - at least wice a week - as well as being able to train on trialling courses and do real work on mobs etc. Edited October 23, 2010 by Janba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superminty Posted October 23, 2010 Author Share Posted October 23, 2010 I guess I have an advantage with driving because, although my boy has had some training over the years, it has been minimal and only occasional. So he is still quite green and doesn't have trained flanks - therefore he has no concept that a flank command always means "come back behind me". I do see people trialling dogs at advanced levels with dogs that do this - and they manage quite all right, but it can get a bit messy. At the moment on sheep, I have a long line on the dog and the sheep on a fence. I stay right in close behind my dog, with the line fairly taut. I give a flank command and help him stay in front of me i.e. if he turns away from his stock to try and come behind me, I stop him with the line and keep him in front of me. Note that I am just introducing flank commands now, so it is basically a brand new exercise (I have done a little around chairs in the backyard though ). My emphasis is on keeping the dog on the flight zone, no matter where I am. In a drive position, this is easiest if I have my dog on a line, because obviously I cannot put direct pressure on him to keep out of the zone, I have to manipulate him physically to do so. Also he doesn't have a stop on sheep so I can't use that. On ducks he will stop/down so I can keep him on the edge of the flight zone without having him on a line. He also has a nice direct walk up on ducks. This is a bit lacking on sheep too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superminty Posted October 24, 2010 Author Share Posted October 24, 2010 (edited) Well, I am off to do some duck herding Today's lesson plan is to work on stop (pause and change direction) and down (going down on first command, not 100th and staying there until released) over a couple of short sessions, then maybe one little bit of driving practice. Edited October 24, 2010 by superminty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiesrule Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 Hi JulesP kelpiesrule - Jasper is a lovely looking dog, really stunning And I am usually a working kelpie fan through and through but golly I like him :D He has lovely distance off his stock but I would say you need to work on getting him to hold balance rather than covering all the time. He is only young though and holding balance is a lot of pressure. My boy is only really starting to do it now, mainly coz I have started insisting he do so I have issues going in off lead - only on sheep though, he seems ok on ducks. Although his last duck trial (12 months ago at least) he took off, jumped the back barrier and went looking for the ducks there He is a bit of a goose. Thanks Superminty :p Jasper really is a nice boy... even though i breed show kelpies, his type is what i prefer and what I will be trying to continue to breed, I love the working kelpie ! He is holding balance much better now, not covering so much, although he is worse when working the fence line. When i work the stock in the open... i just walk, and he does the job of keeping the sheep with me! I dont even have to know where he is because i can see from the sheep what he is doing and I can give a simple command to correct if needed, he is such a natural balancer... sigh.. now to teach him to drive.. which we will start soon! By the time trials start up again i would love for him to be at least trained to Inter level in A course! I would also love to introduce him to ducks sometime as well. with Jasper busting when i took the lead off, we started by walking in the yard off lead and if he took off, i would put a stop on him and walk back out... only had to do it a couple of times until he realised he doesnt get to play until i say so. I can now walk out in the big paddock and he will follow behind off lead until i give him the signal to fetch the sheep... Also, what do you mean by flanking commands when you are teaching to drive? Jasper knows, Bye, Away, Out, Walk in and Stop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiesrule Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 Well, I am off to do some duck herding Today's lesson plan is to work on stop (pause and change direction) and down (going down on first command, not 100th and staying there until released) over a couple of short sessions, then maybe one little bit of driving practice. teaching stop can be fun!!! NOT !! LOL my instructor has us hunt the dog down and roll him over enforcing the stop if the dog does not do it when told. It works really well, Jasper was quite hard headed with stop and after doing this a few times he really got the idea that when I say stop, I mean it !!! If the dog persists with not stopping, enforce the stop as above and then just walk out of the yard. Dog does not get to play unless it does as told hard lessons for some! Shamus was easy as he had obedience training before I started him on sheep, but Jasper had nothing and had to learn from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superminty Posted October 24, 2010 Author Share Posted October 24, 2010 Flanking commands are your sides, or directions. So in your case, Bye and Away I assume mean go clockwise and anti-clockwise. I use "Get Out" to mean choose your own direction and will use "Around" for clockwise and "Back" for anti-clockwise. Had a good day training, got some nice stops - just a brief but clear stop of motion, then a change of direction. "Down" on the other hand....he will do it on second command usually (BIG improvement), but still tries sitting, sniffing, creeping etc. I really have to insist on a down, even if it means the stock get away, otherwsie I will continue to get these half a**ed attempts. Darn dog. Unfortunately he doesn't respond to a tough approach, I just need to outsmart him. We do leave the ring if he is being a real pest, but there is no point growling at him or physically correcting him, he will just blow me off. He's just that kind of dog. But the rest of his work was lovely and we had a good walk around off lead with no bolting back to the ducks - he is quite responsive to me on ducks. Now to get that on sheep! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Q Posted October 24, 2010 Share Posted October 24, 2010 Back from the clinic, Quinn's first reaction was terror as expected. She did improve each time though and once she relised sheep move away from her I did see a bit of her instinct come out, she's still pretty nervous though. The trainer was great, gave her plenty of rest, didn't push her to hard, lots of reassurance and breaks and was really patient with her. She's konked out right now, big day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matilda1 Posted October 25, 2010 Share Posted October 25, 2010 We've just started herding with our two dogs. we are very new to it all and have much to learn. but we love it. Katie (the blue heeler) has just done the beginners course to get us on our way, and Skye our Kelpie is yet to have a run with us, but i would say she has done some in the past. She's a rescue from Mildura, but if the way she herds the cats into one corner of the lounge room is anything to go by, she should do well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superminty Posted October 26, 2010 Author Share Posted October 26, 2010 (edited) Looks like you went to Diggers Rest BellaDonna, I recognise those sheep My boy Cash is the littermate of Mouse, not sure whether you got to see him. Edited October 26, 2010 by superminty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 How does one get involved in herding? I'd be interested in getting my foster dog into it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted October 26, 2010 Share Posted October 26, 2010 There are a couple of places to train in Victoria. There is the Diggers Rest training. I go to Nyora to train. Think there are a couple of other places around too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superminty Posted October 27, 2010 Author Share Posted October 27, 2010 (edited) Kate and Karen give lessons out at Nyora. See http://victorianherdingassociation.com/index.asp?ID=26 for contact details. Dave runs beginners clinics out of Diggers Rest and is very good, particularly for city slickers. See http://herding.webs.com/ There is also a guy in Darraweit Gium - Geoff Henshall - I don't seem to have his contact details at hand but he is great at starting new dogs. There are a few more out there but I haven't got any details. Edited October 27, 2010 by superminty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dova Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 (edited) There are a couple of places to train in Victoria. There is the Diggers Rest training. I go to Nyora to train. Think there are a couple of other places around too. I'm going to Kates for a training session Friday arvo, Pebbles is entered in the MVA so a run will be very helpfull because she'll be in the car for about 10hrs or so tomorrow . I gotta get off the computer & back to packing the car, leaving before the spoggies even start to stretch in the morning & probably won't a wink tonight , I'm so excited . Edited October 27, 2010 by Dova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirty Posted October 27, 2010 Share Posted October 27, 2010 Oh I know Kate. Will ask her about it next time I bump into her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piper Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 There are a couple of places to train in Victoria. There is the Diggers Rest training. I go to Nyora to train. Think there are a couple of other places around too. I'm going to Kates for a training session Friday arvo, Pebbles is entered in the MVA so a run will be very helpfull because she'll be in the car for about 10hrs or so tomorrow . I gotta get off the computer & back to packing the car, leaving before the spoggies even start to stretch in the morning & probably won't a wink tonight , I'm so excited . Good luck Dova - looking forward to hearing that Pebbles is officially crowned a versatile Aussie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted October 28, 2010 Share Posted October 28, 2010 I'm going to Kates for a training session Friday arvo, Pebbles is entered in the MVA so a run will be very helpfull because she'll be in the car for about 10hrs or so tomorrow . I gotta get off the computer & back to packing the car, leaving before the spoggies even start to stretch in the morning & probably won't a wink tonight , I'm so excited . Good luck for the weekend - I hope you get the MVA - it is quite an achievement if you do. Colin is coming down this weekend and coming training at EP so I am hoping I can get him to help me fine tune my driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matilda1 Posted October 30, 2010 Share Posted October 30, 2010 Yes, superminty: indeed that is diggers Daves a great guy and we have made some wonderful friends over there even though it's miles away for us to go to. We were hoping to head over there tomorrow as our new Rescue Skye hasn't had a run yet but I don't think it's happening tomorrow. There's herding in Nyora?? That's not far from my house. are there any contact details? Dave's sheep are cute aren't they? We are planning on getting some of our own next month and turning the horse menage into a herding pen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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