LizT Posted November 8, 2010 Author Share Posted November 8, 2010 (edited) 25 years of dealing with puppy buyers would have me refunding any deposit and homing the puppy elsewhere. Once the puppy leaves home there is very little you can really do to stop them breeding.And personally I don't believe in breeding for pets. If it is not to better the breed it shouldn't happen. I have never bred a litter without the intention if keeping something if it was good enough Great statement....I agree. Yes, it is a great statement and I totally agree with it in essense....however it does bother me, (and I'm sure this bothers all breeders) that this also means that the greater majority of YOUR breed is out there in the community having been bred by BYB, Puppy Millers and those that do no health checks and do nothing to improve the breed or produce a quality representation of YOUR breed. But I'm not really sure if anything can be done about this under the current climate. What are you talking about??? My breed only has 3-5 puppies of which I keep at least 2 to run on so maybe 3 are sold as pets if lucky. How can you say this when you bred the whole litter for pets....how many were in the litter???? I did not breed the whole litter for pets. My hope was to have something good enough to keep, but that is not always the case is it? I have retained a bitch that I have high hopes for but cannot keep all five bitches. My hopes for the remaining pups in the litter was for them to also be sound healthy puppies that would be placed in Pet homes. With a popular breed like Cavaliers there is a huge BYB market and they are always seen in Pet Shop Windows, usually poor examples of the breed to boot. THAT is what I am talking about! Therefore, I don't see what your problem is with producing a litter of pups, from which I intended to keep one bitch, and any other pups I hoped to be healthy, quality puppies for the general Public to own. This just sounds like a misunderstanding. You said originally that you bred the litter just for pets, but later clarified that with your last post above. And I understand that you would rather see the general public with great examples of the breed rather than the substandard BYB pups that are often seen in pet shops etc. I think we'd all like to see that! Yes, The Ark, exactly. :D When I said I had bred this litter for "Pets Only" I meant that I had no intention of selling any to a breeder unless I knew them or someone whose opinion I respected "vouched" for them. I'm not even sure if the one I've kept is ever going to be "more than a pet" but she will be a pet I'm proud of, as I hope is the case with her sisters. :rolleyes: Sorry was going on your opening post. The pitfall of a forum and typing 'simplified' explanations! Edited November 8, 2010 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shazzapug Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 It is not as sinister as it may seem.The husbands twin brother breeds and trains Pointers for the Defence Force in the UK and also trains them as Gun dogs for others. He is a Registered Breeder. The friend with the Terrier "breeds and Shows" therefore is a Registered breeder not BYB. It's just that I did breed this litter for Pets only, and I can understand people being interested in breeding and it may well be something she (the new owner) has thought about doing a fair bit. I think I just need to reiterate that this Puppy is not for that purpose. Pesonally I don't think becoming a Registered breeder is a closed shop, but people shouldn't do it on a whim. Not everything with a uterus should be bred. No, hang on, this is where I got it from, this is what you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted November 8, 2010 Author Share Posted November 8, 2010 (edited) It is not as sinister as it may seem.The husbands twin brother breeds and trains Pointers for the Defence Force in the UK and also trains them as Gun dogs for others. He is a Registered Breeder. The friend with the Terrier "breeds and Shows" therefore is a Registered breeder not BYB. It's just that I did breed this litter for Pets only, and I can understand people being interested in breeding and it may well be something she (the new owner) has thought about doing a fair bit. I think I just need to reiterate that this Puppy is not for that purpose. Pesonally I don't think becoming a Registered breeder is a closed shop, but people shouldn't do it on a whim. Not everything with a uterus should be bred. No, hang on, this is where I got it from, this is what you said. Yes, that is what I'd said, but I was intending to keep one if good enough, but clearly the majority of the litter needs a purpose and that was for Pets in loving homes. I guess to me LR means Pet Only. Edited November 8, 2010 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrinaJ Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 Liz like you this is my first litter and I have a similar situation here.... Buyer said PET ONLY now 2 weeks to go and today has said "I have a question, do you have any show puppies still available, we have been to talking to our breeder up here (he doesn't breed rotties anymore but still shows them) and he would be willing to help us show a dog". My response was Yes I do have a show 'potential' male available (haven't decided who is going where yet, they are only 6 weeks old) to APPROVED homes only. I asked WHO the breeder was in her state (different state to me) and then and only then will I make up my mind (after I have investigated this 'breeder who doesn't breed any more but shows' with a few breeder/show friends of mine who have been around for a hell of a lot longer than me, its a small circle in our breed). I have said that if I do decide to sell the boy on MR it will be for showing only NOT breeding (I dont know this woman from a bar of soap, just through our numerous telephone conversations ) and the 'not to be bred from box will be ticked'. However, LR or MR if a person wants to breed there is nothing from stoping them, they just cant register them. The majority of rottweiler breeders dont desex our males until they are around 2 years old. Mine have all been sold to PET homes, because that is what people have asked for, they were advertised as show potential/working and companions. Unfortunately I've not had any enquiries from show homes and would like to see a male of this breeding shown. I am keeping a female and those who have not yet found a home (2 boys) will remain with me until a suitable home is found. Those boys will be the pick boys and will be shown by me until a suitable home is found. I wasn't expecting such a huge litter but c'est la vie ....... 2 weeks to go and I am getting sad as I will have to say good bye to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted November 8, 2010 Author Share Posted November 8, 2010 Liz like you this is my first litter and I have a similar situation here.... Buyer said PET ONLY now 2 weeks to go and today has said "I have a question, do you have any show puppies still available, we have been to talking to our breeder up here (he doesn't breed rotties anymore but still shows them) and he would be willing to help us show a dog".My response was Yes I do have a show 'potential' male available (haven't decided who is going where yet, they are only 6 weeks old) to APPROVED homes only. I asked WHO the breeder was in her state (different state to me) and then and only then will I make up my mind (after I have investigated this 'breeder who doesn't breed any more but shows' with a few breeder/show friends of mine who have been around for a hell of a lot longer than me, its a small circle in our breed). I have said that if I do decide to sell the boy on MR it will be for showing only NOT breeding (I dont know this woman from a bar of soap, just through our numerous telephone conversations ) and the 'not to be bred from box will be ticked'. However, LR or MR if a person wants to breed there is nothing from stoping them, they just cant register them. The majority of rottweiler breeders dont desex our males until they are around 2 years old. Mine have all been sold to PET homes, because that is what people have asked for, they were advertised as show potential/working and companions. Unfortunately I've not had any enquiries from show homes and would like to see a male of this breeding shown. I am keeping a female and those who have not yet found a home (2 boys) will remain with me until a suitable home is found. Those boys will be the pick boys and will be shown by me until a suitable home is found. I wasn't expecting such a huge litter but c'est la vie ....... 2 weeks to go and I am getting sad as I will have to say good bye to them It is sad to see them go and I was a bit upset at the reaction their mum had only after the car drove off with her baby... she started to bark and jump at the gate. I hope people keep in touch as they say and send me some pictures. I'm glad you are open to the possiblility of someone showing your dog. If you decide later on that the dog should be bred from can you change that amendment so it's progeny can be registered? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrinaJ Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 I'm glad you are open to the possiblility of someone showing your dog. If you decide later on that the dog should be bred from can you change that amendment so it's progeny can be registered? Not that I am aware of.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted November 8, 2010 Author Share Posted November 8, 2010 I'm glad you are open to the possiblility of someone showing your dog. If you decide later on that the dog should be bred from can you change that amendment so it's progeny can be registered? Not that I am aware of.... Well I guess since you have the bloodlines even if he was a sucessful show dog and titled they would not be lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 I'm glad you are open to the possiblility of someone showing your dog. If you decide later on that the dog should be bred from can you change that amendment so it's progeny can be registered? Not that I am aware of.... I would think that if you, as the breeder, wish to change the endorsement that it could be done in a similar fashion to the way in which a Limited Registration can be upgraded to Main Registration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrinaJ Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 I'm glad you are open to the possiblility of someone showing your dog. If you decide later on that the dog should be bred from can you change that amendment so it's progeny can be registered? Not that I am aware of.... I would think that if you, as the breeder, wish to change the endorsement that it could be done in a similar fashion to the way in which a Limited Registration can be upgraded to Main Registration. That's what I thought ellz, but I was told by another breeder that it cant be done once it is ticked. Dogs Vic can be a pain in the arse at times and quite rude if you happen to ring them with a question, they treat you like a moron. I asked a question once about this litter and she said to me (exactly) "well Dah!!" (rude bitch). I hate ringing them and going in there, the ones on the counter are the most unfriendly 'customer service' people I've ever come across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 First lesson...do NOT listen to what other breeders say when it comes to rules and regulations!!! Seriously though, VicDogs is a business like any other. If you don't get any joy from whoever answers the phone, don't hesitate to ask for her supervisor. And if all else fails, ask to speak to the CEO. As a member, you are perfectly entitled to prompt and accurate information about registrations and transfers. As an aside....I've had a dog registered, de-registered, progeny de-registered, dog put on Limited Registration, dog put on "not to be bred" etc etc etc all at the whim of the person behind the computer terminal with absolutely NO supporting paperwork provided other than a bad attitude and a major grudge. ANYTHING is possible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asal Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 (edited) Heres a thought....IF she really wants to get into showing, why cant she go along to shows WITH YOU and do a *internship* or similar? Im of the same mind as you, nothing of mine goes out for breeding, BUT if someone generally wanted to get into breeding, and showing then Im MORE than happy to let someone know what showing is all about. If i still cannot provide a dog, there is always importing, or other breeders. i know a few do that, no amend that, most i know do that, i also know two of em that now have no one or nowhere to go to get a pup from, when they lost the lines when their bitch in one case was desexed without their consent, (family argument) the other developed pymetra and the vet recommended she be desexed n none of their siblings were not already LR n desexed as part of the contract. burning all bridges can have its rammifications Edited November 8, 2010 by asal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted November 8, 2010 Author Share Posted November 8, 2010 Heres a thought....IF she really wants to get into showing, why cant she go along to shows WITH YOU and do a *internship* or similar? Im of the same mind as you, nothing of mine goes out for breeding, BUT if someone generally wanted to get into breeding, and showing then Im MORE than happy to let someone know what showing is all about. If i still cannot provide a dog, there is always importing, or other breeders. i know a few do that, no amend that, most i know do that, i also know two of em that now have no one or nowhere to go to get a pup from, when they lost the lines when their bitch in one case was desexed without their consent, (family argument) the other developed pymetra and the vet recommended she be desexed n none of their siblings were not already LR n desexed as part of the contract. burning all bridges can have its rammifications That's why I was wondering if the decision to tick the box "not to be bred" could be changed by the breeder just in case the worst should happened to the line (dog forbid). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrinaJ Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 Liz I recommend that you call Dogs Vic (hopefully you get a 'nice' person, and ask them if you can uncheck the box at a later date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 burning all bridges can have its rammifications Been there done that too. In fact, going through it at the moment. My pick bitch was stolen. I'm increasingly reluctant to breed from her mother again. But it doesn't for one minute mean that I should breed from one of her siblings (all of whom are on LR with spey/neuter) because they are still only second best and I don't believe in settling for second best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 My crystal ball predicts a whole lot of heart ache coming your way. I give it 12 months and this bitch will be BYB. The alarm bells went off and nothing you've added since the first page has changed my mind. I hope I'm wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 While everyone is putting their sixpence worth in and pontificating, Limited Register has only been around 6or so year max maybe 10 so all pups where on main before that regardless of the quality. One wonders what brought in LR. :rofl: ;) :D :D ;) ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted November 9, 2010 Author Share Posted November 9, 2010 My crystal ball predicts a whole lot of heart ache coming your way. I give it 12 months and this bitch will be BYB. The alarm bells went off and nothing you've added since the first page has changed my mind. I hope I'm wrong Why would someone who intends to BYB ask for pup to be changed to Main Register? She stated that her 13 year old desexed male was on Main ( but there was no LR then), so perhaps people feel there is a 'stigma' attached or that they are getting 'seconds' with "Limited Register". If she just wanted to BYB 'Limited Reg" would not be an obstacle so better for her not to ask at all wouldn't it in case the sale fell through? Just now a different puppy sale has been let go by me because husband of original inquirer is "not happy' about LR and "may want to breed his bitch" so has decided he will get a puppy on MR in the New Year. That's fine I said to them, this girl is staying on LR. So BYB is not what they want either. I think people feel they should have a right to legitimately breed there dogs if they want to. When I told them that it was not as simple as just finding another male on MR and breeding to get them registered they were surprised. When I added that after doing my sums on this litter of five pups in the end my expenses have left me with enough to cover a Stud Fee (I hope) and a bitch to go on with. They were surprised! I think more people need to realise that breeding Registered dogs is a "Not for Profit Organisation"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted November 9, 2010 Author Share Posted November 9, 2010 (edited) burning all bridges can have its rammifications Been there done that too. In fact, going through it at the moment. My pick bitch was stolen. I'm increasingly reluctant to breed from her mother again. But it doesn't for one minute mean that I should breed from one of her siblings (all of whom are on LR with spey/neuter) because they are still only second best and I don't believe in settling for second best. I agree with that Ellz but my thoughts were more along the line of "What if the puppy that has been 'restricted' to 'Show Only and Not for Breeding' turns out as good or even better AND the line is under threat for whatever reasons. Under that situation it would be a pity not to be able to use him or for the Original Breeder to make that decision to change the amendment. PS. I've emailed Dogsvic to try to find out. Edited November 9, 2010 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted November 9, 2010 Author Share Posted November 9, 2010 (edited) Liz I recommend that you call Dogs Vic (hopefully you get a 'nice' person, and ask them if you can uncheck the box at a later date. Oh, can't I just email them? :rolleyes: *UPDATE* TrinaJ, I've sent a nice email asking that very question...will let you know how I go. :D Edited November 9, 2010 by LizT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Just got off the phone to Vic Dog, and yes breeders can alter any restrictions on pedigree forms ie Limited to Main plus the restrictions ticked on the back. I was ringing them about something else and though I would ask whilst on the phone.... but yes, all very doable. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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