Stop The Use Of Pound Animals For Experiments At Queensland University

[WoofnHoof]

Loads of basic principles can be learned from a book if you are that way inclined, personally I learn best watching others rather than doing it myself (visual learning), I learned to give IV injections to the horse that way, lucky for me (and the horse!) horse veins are really easy to find

Staranais I know what you mean about the rabbit intestines thing being a bit unnecessary, we had one where they fed something to the rats to change their adrenal glands just so we could pull them out and extract something I can't remember the details now but it was all pretty pointless in hindsight.

There are lots of different tools for learning and lots of different ways that people learn, Raz you must think in a totally different way to me as I see learning to use scalpels and needles as skills of dexterity and accuracy rather than the substance they are used on, I suspect in some people it may be psychological they need to feel as though they are working on something real in order to develop their skills whereas others can translate the same skills regardless of the material under the scalpel or needle. It really depends on your style of learning, obviously there are going to be differences between live and dead tissue but ultimately some people will benefit more than others from the use of live tissue.

[raz]

Raz you must think in a totally different way to me

Sure for sure and it was totally genuine - I just dont understand how you could learn to operate on an animal without getting in there and doing it (probably because I've never cut an animal open or given an IV). I'm sure it's possible - some people can lock themselves in a room and teach themselves a new language just from a book - I dont understand how they can do that either - but they're pretty far and few between. As I said to Rappie earlier, it;s very interesting for a lay person.

[stormie]

I just can't see how a text book or cadaver can really prepare you for the real thing. More often than not, the images in the texts are nothing like what you see in real life. Just last week my boss was showing me the different techniques that can be used for a Femoral Head Excision in his Orthopaedics text book. But the first thing he said to me was that when we actually go in, it will look nothing like the pictures. And he was so right.

Similar thing with cadavers. Things look, feel and act differently in a dead body. And I'm sure the surgeon does too. If it's just a cadaver, you know it's dead and it doesn't matter so much if you do something majorly wrong. But working on a living animal, even though it's going to be pts at the end, there's still a sense of needing to be careful and not wanting to do the wrong thing.

When my boss graduated, he'd already done cruciate repairs in uni. So going into clinic, obviously he wouldn't have done them straight away, but he was able to assist straight away and pretty soon he was doing them himself. These days, in our experience, the newer grads put off doing them and just watch, but pretty soon time goes by and they still haven't done one and end up referring them instead.

I can't help but think that Veterinarians are becoming more and more like GP's and only doing the basic stuff and referring anything more complicated, which personally I think is a real shame.

[raz]

OK here's another example and also a genuine question - I can learn to drive a car just from reading a textbook. Would you be comfortable letting me loose on the road for the first time with your child in the back seat?

[Guest choice_brandy]

Thought I would make up a petition to send to the Minister also offering support for the program. Anyone interested in signing it and posting it are more than welcome.

Stop the Petition to Stop the Use of Pound Animals for Experiments at Queensland University

[Aussienot]

Beautiful, thanks

Edited November 22, 2010 by Aussienot

[sllebasi]

learning to drive a car is probably a bad example to use as you have had 17 years to watch how mum and dad use the indicator, turn the steering wheel, make judgements as to when to go, learn what the road signs mean.

However if its something like flying a plane or driving a train where you havent been preexposed to it, you would not have a clue of where to start learning.

some things you can fumble your way through, and operating on an animal is probably not one of them

[raz]

learning to drive a car is probably a bad example to use as you have had 17 years to watch how mum and dad use the indicator, turn the steering wheel, make judgements as to when to go, learn what the road signs mean.

No not really. I was coming at it from this angle - If I have your child in the backseat of my car and I drive it for the first time after only learning to drive by looking at a text book, would you be happy? The same for me. No way in hell would I let a grad vet slice open my dog if they had only looked at pictures.

[WoofnHoof]

learning to drive a car is probably a bad example to use as you have had 17 years to watch how mum and dad use the indicator, turn the steering wheel, make judgements as to when to go, learn what the road signs mean.

No not really. I was coming at it from this angle - If I have your child in the backseat of my car and I drive it for the first time after only learning to drive by looking at a text book, would you be happy? The same for me. No way in hell would I let a grad vet slice open my dog if they had only looked at pictures.

Still a bad analogy given that there is more to a vet degree than 'looking at pictures', regardless of whether there were non-recovery ops done.

[raz]

learning to drive a car is probably a bad example to use as you have had 17 years to watch how mum and dad use the indicator, turn the steering wheel, make judgements as to when to go, learn what the road signs mean.

No not really. I was coming at it from this angle - If I have your child in the backseat of my car and I drive it for the first time after only learning to drive by looking at a text book, would you be happy? The same for me. No way in hell would I let a grad vet slice open my dog if they had only looked at pictures.

Still a bad analogy given that there is more to a vet degree than 'looking at pictures', regardless of whether there were non-recovery ops done.

I'll say again - no not really. You're not even a vet student so I dont know how you're prepared to slice open a dog, with or without a picture. I'm as capable of driving on the road without training as you are to operate on an animal just by looking at pictures in a text book

[WoofnHoof]

learning to drive a car is probably a bad example to use as you have had 17 years to watch how mum and dad use the indicator, turn the steering wheel, make judgements as to when to go, learn what the road signs mean.

No not really. I was coming at it from this angle - If I have your child in the backseat of my car and I drive it for the first time after only learning to drive by looking at a text book, would you be happy? The same for me. No way in hell would I let a grad vet slice open my dog if they had only looked at pictures.

Still a bad analogy given that there is more to a vet degree than 'looking at pictures', regardless of whether there were non-recovery ops done.

I'll say again - no not really. You're not even a vet student so I dont know how you're prepared to slice open a dog, with or without a picture. I'm as capable of driving on the road without training as you are to operate on an animal just by looking

at pictures in a text book

Now you're not making any sense at all, since I'm not a vet student and have never claimed to be (although I've done a few of the same courses as part of my own studies) I definitely haven't claimed that I could operate on a dog just by looking at pictures (although I don't discount the possibility that some people would be able to do that) . My lack of practical experience certainly hasn't hindered my ability to treat various ailments in horses which brings me to wonder whether non recoveries are done as part of the equine specialization? I suspect not since they are more expensive to obtain but I could be wrong.

I'm merely pointing out that a veterinary degree does not have to include non recovery surgeries in order to prepare a student well enough for the tasks ahead - whether that is the optimum or the ideal is debatable (and of course is the topic in the OP) but given that many vet courses do produce vets without the non recovery surgeries it's logical to assume that these are relatively successful given that they would soon develop a reputation for producing crap vets and no one would go there to study.

This topic is about whether a university can produce a competent vet without the use of non recovery surgeries, I have no idea how you have extrapolated this out to mean that they just hand their students a textbook and send them on their way to operating on peoples pets?

[raz]

This topic is about whether a university can produce a competent vet without the use of non recovery surgeries, I have no idea how you have extrapolated this out to mean that they just hand their students a textbook and send them on their way to operating on peoples pets?

Because it was stated on here by a few people, you included, that it could be learnt just by looking at diagrams, or am I missing something? Apologies in advance if I have.

[Remarkabull]

I'm with you raz - I wouldn't let a vet operate on my dog if they had no 'real' experience.

[Staranais]

Even in unis that don't do non-recovery surgeries, the students still watch recovery surgeries, do recovery surgeries, & dissect cadavers. So it's not exactly as if they're just shown a picture and told to run off and operate by themselves. Although an experienced surgeon might decide to attempt a new surgery only after reading about it (they already have a thorough knowledge of surgical principles & anatomy), it's not an appropriate way to start your career as a surgeon IMO.

But I personally feel that the non-recoveries I've done were really, really helpful. I might well have graduated as a competent vet without them, but from where I'm sitting (less than one year till graduation...) every little bit of experience is so valuable & helps to make me more competent & more confident at what I'm doing.

[raz]

Although an experienced surgeon might decide to attempt a new surgery only after reading about it (they already have a thorough knowledge of surgical principles & anatomy), it's not an appropriate way to start your career as a surgeon IMO.

Sure for sure. I totally understand what you're saying on both counts. And this comment of yours is where I'm looking at it from the point of view of an animal owner:

every little bit of experience is so valuable & helps to make me more competent & more confident at what I'm doing.

It's been a really interesting thread but I wont be signing the petition. Any vet grad I consult in future for my dogs I want to have had maximum experience. Good luck in your final year Staranais.

[Staranais]

Thanks Raz!

[Jed]

Universities which do not allow operations on living dogs/animals have a reputation for not producing the calibre of graduating vets as those which do.

Vets from "better" unis are likely to score better jobs, be allowed to do more procedures and generally expand their knowledge base, so they become better vets faster.

There are some excellent vets out there, but there are some ordinary ones too, and I am against any move which is sure to produce more ordinary vets.

I cannot see any drama about dogs which are going anyhow being used to provide non painful assistance to veterinary students, which use assists everyone with a pet.

More animal rights nonsense. Dead is dead. Suffering is suffering. If there is no suffering, there is no problems in my opinion.

Edited November 27, 2010 by Jed

[WoofnHoof]

I cannot see any drama about dogs which are going anyhow being used to provide non painful assistance to veterinary students, which use assists everyone with a pet.

Actually I do see a problem, when I took my dog into the vets and he crashed the vets didn't do a full run of blood tests which would have identified the problem. Now it's possible that they believed that a blood test wouldn't prove the diagnoses they were leaning towards, but it's also possible that due to his advanced and rapid state of decline they believed that the dog was 'going to die anyway' and so further investigation was a waste of time. Now I cannot confirm or deny that this was the case but it certainly makes me wonder whether the 'it's going to die anyway' mantra is as harmless as it initially appears.

[Crisovar]

I cannot see any drama about dogs which are going anyhow being used to provide non painful assistance to veterinary students, which use assists everyone with a pet.

Actually I do see a problem, when I took my dog into the vets and he crashed the vets didn't do a full run of blood tests which would have identified the problem. Now it's possible that they believed that a blood test wouldn't prove the diagnoses they were leaning towards, but it's also possible that due to his advanced and rapid state of decline they believed that the dog was 'going to die anyway' and so further investigation was a waste of time. Now I cannot confirm or deny that this was the case but it certainly makes me wonder whether the 'it's going to die anyway' mantra is as harmless as it initially appears.

What exactly does that have to do with pound dogs??

[Jed]

I cannot see any drama about dogs which are going anyhow being used to provide non painful assistance to veterinary students, which use assists everyone with a pet.

Actually I do see a problem, when I took my dog into the vets and he crashed the vets didn't do a full run of blood tests which would have identified the problem. Now it's possible that they believed that a blood test wouldn't prove the diagnoses they were leaning towards, but it's also possible that due to his advanced and rapid state of decline they believed that the dog was 'going to die anyway' and so further investigation was a waste of time. Now I cannot confirm or deny that this was the case but it certainly makes me wonder whether the 'it's going to die anyway' mantra is as harmless as it initially appears.

There is no correlation between the use of pound dogs in vet schools and your belief that your vet failed to do what you considered his best for your dog.

Maybe he did think the dog would die anyhow and you wouldn't be prepared to pay hundreds for blood tests for a dog which was dead (a frequent scenario), maybe he was quite sure of the diagnosis, maybe he was an idiot

Edited November 28, 2010 by Jed