Raising Dogs In Apartments

[marinapoint]

Guys I just thought that I should add this small point of discussion.

The OP from the breeders section has spoken with me and I told him to go with his heart... Sometimes what you feel in your gut is much more important than what you see in front of you. If you arent comfortable, then it should be no.

Also, the people concerned have owner a pointer before. In an appartment. So they do have an idea what they might need to do. I'm not saying one way or the other, just that the people concerned have owned the breed before, understand its requirements (I would assume!!!!) and from what I gather would love to bring a pointer back into their lives. I did mention to do a house check and various other points such as where the pup would be exercise, OFF LEASH as walking isnt enough.

Still, your gut feeling should be the way you go. Not what others tell you to do. At the end of the day, as the breeder you will be left with a puppy returned to you as its living situation isnt excatly what the new owners had imagined... When it could have been prevented.

[Troy]

Can we quit with the snarky comments that are starting to appear. If you do not like what a person says and you do not think you will be able to control what you say in reply, put the poster that you have an issue with on ignore.

Thanks

[raz]

Guys I just thought that I should add this small point of discussion.

The OP from the breeders section has spoken with me and I told him to go with his heart... Sometimes what you feel in your gut is much more important than what you see in front of you. If you arent comfortable, then it should be no.

Also, the people concerned have owner a pointer before. In an appartment. So they do have an idea what they might need to do. I'm not saying one way or the other, just that the people concerned have owned the breed before, understand its requirements (I would assume!!!!) and from what I gather would love to bring a pointer back into their lives. I did mention to do a house check and various other points such as where the pup would be exercise, OFF LEASH as walking isnt enough.

Still, your gut feeling should be the way you go. Not what others tell you to do. At the end of the day, as the breeder you will be left with a puppy returned to you as its living situation isnt excatly what the new owners had imagined... When it could have been prevented.

Sure for sure. The email to the breeder was really sad but at the end of the day the breeder knows if they want to sell a pup or not. She obviously isnt comfy selling a dog to an apartment life so it's her call.

[Rebanne]

since a forum board is fairly anonymous, why not ask it here?

Fair enough. I just cant answer your question because I dont know.

eta I probably can answer as a puppy buyer. What would I do if a breeder said I wasnt suitable for one of his/her pups?

Find another breeder

Make myself suitable

Realise the breeder was right and I wasnt suitable

Would i go to a byb or petshop with my knickers in a twist that the first breeder was being 'prejudiced'? Nup.

Ah, but that's YOU - someone who is fairly knowledgeable about dogs, not just your average Joe Public, who most likely would then think that breeders were all snobs & source from a petshop or BYB

so what, why should we sell our dogs to people we consider unfit for whatever reason

[dancinbcs]

Can we quit with the snarky comments that are starting to appear. If you do not like what a person says and you do not think you will be able to control what you say in reply, put the poster that you have an issue with on ignore.

Thanks

Where is the ignore option?

[Rebanne]

I've said it before, all dogs, no matter their breeding, deserve good homes. I don't get why breeders who are trying to do just that get it in the neck cause they won't lower their standards, just so someone can buy one of their puppies.

As Raz ( I think ) said, damned if we do, damned if we don't

[Rebanne]

Can we quit with the snarky comments that are starting to appear. If you do not like what a person says and you do not think you will be able to control what you say in reply, put the poster that you have an issue with on ignore.

Thanks

Where is the ignore option?

go to the members profile, then there is a button on the right with profile options, one of which is ignore user

[Jumabaar]

To protect a pup's growth plates, the recommendation is that pups should get free exercise rather than being walked on lead.

This is exactly why large breed pups should be raised in homes with yards, and not be raised in apartments.

The dogs need to exercise and rest at their own natural intervals, and not be put in a sitauition where there joints get pounded by the repetitive nature of lead walking on a lead alongside a person.

Good on you for reading some research from the US, too bad you don't really understand what you have read.

Lead walking a giant breed pup instead of letting it free run for exercise is a sure way of it developing arthritis as an adult.

Exhibit A.

The exact attitude that sucks from breeders. More holier than thou rubbish.

Go back and read my original post. It was working dog specific advice! I wouldn't bother reading any advice for large breed dogs because they interest me little and I'd never own one.

The research was completed in march of last year at the uni of wisconsin (or washington?) ... And it suggested that previous advice on working breeds is now outdated and should be replaced with: collared walking is to replace letting dogs run their own race. working breeds will overdo it and must be held back for longevity.

About 10 years ago in the U.S they banned agility for working dogs under 18 months for this reason, and in Australia they still in places allow any dog of any age to run.

You know what, I'd be really surprised if I responded to another post you type. I know all I need to about you

I have kelpies, and they do use the yard- I have three that self exercise the day away (in suburbia) because you never know when those evil zombies might attack, or a bird might try and land in the yard!! I wouldn't like to see a kelpie live somewhere it didn't have the opportunity to sun bake or have a zoomie session. My dogs are locked up when I am out like many others, but when I am at home they have access to the yard.

As pups I think they do need to have controlled off lead play. There is a difference between zoomies, and 'i am not thinking where I am running' crazy play, and after one injury from not stopping that type of play they have all been taught a time out que!!

I don't think I could sell a kelpie to someone with no yard at all- a small courtyard would be fine, I have a friend with three working dogs in a townhouse successfully, but she is not your average puppy owner....... I also would struggle to sell one of my next litter to someone without a fence- since the mother is a piss off artist when she decides to be and although all of the pups have been homebodies I couldn't garuntee it in this generation. Other kelpie breeders who have had the opportunity to breed for dogs that won't piss off would obviously be much happier to consider people without fencing.

I guess what I am trying to get across is that as a breeder I know my breed but I also know my lines. Thus there will be blanket refusals based on both of these facts. I have met many people who wanted a kelpie that were just not suitable, some have gone on to get them and are just not happy. So sometimes it is necessary to accept that the breeder is right and either their breed or their lines are not suitable for certain situations......

Might mean I have some crazy expectations but ultimately it is what it is and I know what my puppies need......

[poodlemum]

since a forum board is fairly anonymous, why not ask it here?

Fair enough. I just cant answer your question because I dont know.

eta I probably can answer as a puppy buyer. What would I do if a breeder said I wasnt suitable for one of his/her pups?

Find another breeder

Make myself suitable

Realise the breeder was right and I wasnt suitable

Would i go to a byb or petshop with my knickers in a twist that the first breeder was being 'prejudiced'? Nup.

Ah, but that's YOU - someone who is fairly knowledgeable about dogs, not just your average Joe Public, who most likely would then think that breeders were all snobs & source from a petshop or BYB

so what, why should we sell our dogs to people we consider unfit for whatever reason

Not saying you should, just stating what someone not familiar with the purebred dog world might think - no need to get YOUR knickers in a knot :rolleyes:

[OSoSwift]

Woofen would you sell a pup to someone like me??

I live on acerage, have livestock fences around the house which if a dog really wanted to they could get thorugh. I do not leave my dogs out unattended, I have escape proof dog runs of a substantial size and will have a yard attached (half finished) that is 7 metres X 4 metres and is grassed and a 7 foot high fence??? My dogs are inside when I am as a general rule. But are in dog runs when I am out.

I am interested to know as with some breeds who do need really secure fencing or they could rack off and not come back until they are ready the fences would be no good, but for dogs like my Whippets that never leave your side and certainly always know where you are they have never attempted to ge through the fences and never taken off. As I say they are not left out unsupervised.

I am sure there are a few breeders that would not sell to me due to the fact I do not have the convential backyard set up.

[raz]

I've said it before, all dogs, no matter their breeding, deserve good homes. I don't get why breeders who are trying to do just that get it in the neck cause they won't lower their standards, just so someone can buy one of their puppies.

As Raz ( I think ) said, damned if we do, damned if we don't

You know what's funny - when Rescue vets a home and knocks them back because they're unsuitable, they're being responsible. When a breeder does it, they're being elitist snobs. I just dont get it. :D

Woofen, for what it's worth I dont think you have crazy expectations. You sound like a great breeder whose priorities are with your puppies! Good on you.

[aitewan]

I only just became aware of this thread. A lot of the posters assume the alternative to the pup living in the apartment is being forgotten about in the back yard. This is simply not true. How do I know? Because I am the OP and the breeder that made this decision.

Let me break my decision making down for you.

It is not simply that the couple lives in an apartment. The apartment building also happens to be a high rise building in Melbourne CBD (Docklands). Although the building itself is adjacent to parkland, it is relatively small and bounded by relatively busy road traffic. Pointers need time of leash. Absolutely. The couple in question both work full time, one travels overseas for work at times and they also own a Jack Russell who lives in the apartment. I could not confidently say that one of my dogs, living in this environment would get the development, exercise and freedom that I feel it needs. Like many of you have commented, I am the breeder and at the end of the day it is my decision to make based on personal values, knowledge, interviews with interested buyers and gut feel.

Still, I toiled with this decision. This is why I wrote my original post. That is why I came here to rely on the knowledge and wisdom of those people who came here in the first place for the same reason as I did – a love of my dogs. That is why I called and spoke to other breeders. That is why I spoke with friends who live in apartments, researched the net, went and saw my vet and kept my dogs inside for two days as an experiment.

All things told, after;

(i) Such an overwhelming support for my original decision (no),

(ii) Seeing my neurotic dogs crave the outside where they can guiltlessly relieve themselves anywhere they choose, have a bark at someone passing by, have a sniff or chase a bird.

(iii) Knowing the off leash needs of Pointers and the couples proclamation to me there is a park where they would achieve this outside their building – I have already given a dog to a family whose dog was run over and killed by a car…..

(iv) Having such an overwhelming demand for dogs from family homes, homes with Pointers, homes with acreage – I was in a position to question less attractive homes. Do not think for one moment that I allowed any of my dogs go to a home simply because of land size. Every single person who showed interest in one of my pups had to demonstrate to me a level of care and emotional intelligence relating to dog owenrship.

I am a Pointer owner and I am proud of it. I have bred some beautiful dogs and I a proud of that. The world cannot have enough Pointers! I have made some difficult decisions along the way. I am thankful that the care and effort and consideration I have put into breeding and selecting homes for MY dogs has paid off. I am eternally grateful that the feedback I receive from owners of my pups reflects this, as do their actions by weekly communiqués including emails, phone calls and photos – as a breeder I am privileged to have brought happiness to peoples lives through dogs in general and Pointers specifically.

Some of you may have ‘successfully’ kept gun dogs in an apartment. Well good on you, maybe your definition of success and a happy dog and mine are different. All my dogs have gone to wonderful homes and it is because of the love and care I have put into the selection process I can confidently say this.

Thank you all for commenting on this issue. We all have different opinions and this is one of the things that make our world interesting. The dog may have had a decent life but in the end I made a judgment call with all of the information at my disposal. Dog ownership is a big responsibility that comes with huge rewards. I stand by my decision and whilst I feel for the couple, I make no apologies.

Dogs, bringing people together.

[megan_]

.

It is not simply that the couple lives in an apartment. The apartment building also happens to be a high rise building in Melbourne CBD (Docklands).

Good call! The "parkland" in Docklands is tiny with no room for off leash running. The person would need to get into their car and battle terrible traffic twice a day to even begin meeting the dogs needs IMO.

My dogs stay inside due to a recent robbery. They seem happy, but I think dogs just get used to the status quo - it doesn't mean that their lifestyle is actually good for them. I am curerntly working out how I'm going to better meet their needs without risking security.

It is much harder to meet their needs as I need to walk them twice a day without fail. This means getting up at 5am on weekdays, not being able to go out on weeknights etc so their needs are met. It means planning ahead for 40C days, and walking in the rain. It means driving up to 1hr plus so that I can take them to new, varied places (the same street walk every day would be a form of sensory deprivation IMO).

[_PL_]

I've said it before, all dogs, no matter their breeding, deserve good homes. I don't get why breeders who are trying to do just that get it in the neck cause they won't lower their standards, just so someone can buy one of their puppies.

As Raz ( I think ) said, damned if we do, damned if we don't

You know what's funny - when Rescue vets a home and knocks them back because they're unsuitable, they're being responsible. When a breeder does it, they're being elitist snobs. I just dont get it.

Woofen, for what it's worth I dont think you have crazy expectations. You sound like a great breeder whose priorities are with your puppies! Good on you.

Not always, sometimes we cop 'time waster' 'unreasonable' 'ego tripper' 'god complex' 'control freak' 'uncaring' or 'you must want to keep the dog yourself'. LOL

But I agree (and live in a higher density area with a lot of dog owners who give it all they've got), puppies and apartments are not always the best mix depending on breed. Some older dogs in the sofa stage can do fine. Some dogs are ok but it takes a lot of commitment from the owner. There's no taking a day off because you have a hangover, or no walkies today because it's raining. Pet Loos don't clean themselves. And holidays mean board or savvy houseminder.

Emails claiming a 10yr old dog as to be rehomed because they are 'moving to an apartment' doesn't instill a lot of confidence in people's commitment either.

Breeders who check out homes thoroughly shouldn't be chastised for trying to avoid a poor outcome for the dogs they raise. Nor should rescuers. Same/same.

OT but my friend rented his small apartment and the tenant hid a maltese X pup in there. Poor thing trashed the place -not sure what caused her distress neighbours reported later that the tenant was out a lot and they could hear the pup cry constantly. It seems she had lack of exercise and possibly anxiety. The gyprock was chewed, the skirtings around the doors ruined, the carpets soiled beyond repair in most areas and had to be replaced. The tenant did a runner. And this all happened across the road from an enormous of leash park.

Doesn't put me off homing to an apartment but does mean extra questions and being ready to say sorry: not the right dog for you.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Powerlegs

[Pretty Miss Emma]

I really think it depends on so many factors - type of dog, temperament of dog, age of dog, the people involved, location, etc, etc, etc.

Small spaces can work, I have 2 BC's with only a small yard. But like many others have said, this takes thought and planning. By living in this environment I have committed to my dogs to take them on very decent walks EVERY day regardless of weather, how I feel or what I have going on (and if I can't do it then I need to get someone in to do it). But that is a decision I made and one that I discussed with the breeder of my young one.

I'm not a breeder, but am a trainer. From the training perspective, if you can provie the environmental enrichment your dog needs you can make this work. As for what my thoughts would be if I were breeding dogs, then I think a breeder has a right to find what they feel is the best home for their puppy. And if the breeder isn't satisfied the home will be right for the puppy they should say no. I think this is the responsible thing to do - find the most appropriate homes for your puppies.

[Monah]

Breeder's decision. If I were a breeder the prospective homes would go through an in depth process, I think I would be one of those disliked breeders

Obviously people do keep dogs in apartments and flats overseas quite commonly.

I love seeing dogs enjoying their environment, ie. doing doggy stuff.. and they love it.

Everyone is an individual, if a person were in an apartment but spent weekends or time in the great outdoors with their dogs, i would evaluate on this and if they had reasonable expectations of what is involved.

we moved to darwin for a year, from 2 acres and beaches, to a tiny duplex with a 'patch' of grass.. and no beach to use.

Our dogs didn't even seem to know the difference, but they were run daily in a park and swam in a lagoon along with dog sports. :D

[halfthewords]

Mischa would easily fit into an apartment situation with the right exercise. She isn't big on barking or destructive so she would be fine. Carl would also be okay; he sleeps most of the time anyway. I would expect them to be difficult if they weren't being exercised, since they are used to a large backyard, pool and full run of a 2 storey house.

[Montage]

Can someone please tell me where I can get one of these couch potato staffies? My two are running me ragged!

I'm not sure that an apartment would be ideal for a lot of dog breeds but I agree that having a big backyard does not necessarily=responsible dog owner. My 12 year old staffy could probably do ok in an apartment but my 15 week old definitely wouldn't.

[Adza]

I think breeders have the right to decide who can take the pup home, no one elses decision. I suppose with more and more apartments going up now, this will come up more often and a decision breeders will be faced with more frequently..

I wonder if rescues take this into account too? We were told pretty much a yard is a must, I doubt we could have taken Tahli home living in an apartment (large breeds I mean)

[kiesha09]

Ahh the great apartment debate. It certainly is an interesting topic. About 5 years ago I was living in an apartment and desperately wanted a dog so I rescued a maltese x after researching and researching and researching what breed to get. They all said SWF - poodles, maltese, Shitzu etc or Great Danes or Greyhounds etc.

So got the SWF from a reputable rescue organisation and boy was he the least suited dog to apartment living or what He was a high energy, demanding and destructive little sh*t but it made me one of the most dedicated dog owners I know. There was NEVER a day that he didn't get 2 walks a day plus training, he went to training 2 nights a week and I would spend weekends doing everything with him. He also came everywhere with me.

It's lucky he landed in my hands because I'm sure his sorry little butt would have been kicked right back to the rescue had he gone to someone else.

I then decided to add another and just as she settled down we moved into a house with a yard.

Raising a puppy in an apartment is HARD WORK!! Toilet training is harder, exercise is harder, training is harder, everything is harder and you have to be dedicated. I think the decision should be made on the person buying the puppy and what their dedication will be like rather than the size of the yard.

BTW: my two use the yard once in a blue moon now so would be perfect for an apartment