Separation Anxiety

[Bellio]

Hi,

My boyfriend and I are finally in a position to be able to own / keep a dog with us on our property. My boyfriend has already brought with him his families Jack Russell who he has had since he was a teenager. The problem is that she has Seperation Anxiety and will go mental - running around in circles and barking - whenever someone tries to leave or comes home. Although, she is not destructive once we have left. We are trying to get her more used to the idea of people coming and going by mixing up our routines and regularly stepping outside for a few seconds / minutes at a time. We have also tried giving her lots of activities to entertain herself whilst we are out (which is difficult as she is not food motivated). And we are giving her plenty of excercise before and after we leave for extended periods of time.

Any other suggestions you may have will be welcomed, but the main reason I have posted today is to find out whether anybody has had any experience with introducing a new puppy to a dog with seperation anxiety and whether the new puppy has picked up any of the behaviours associated with Seperation anxiety.

Obviously, I would now like to have a puppy of my own, but I don't want to do this if there is any chance of transferring the seperation anxiety on to the new addition. Actually, I was hoping that the introduction of another dog could infact help our Jack Russell with her S.A. ...

Any experiences or oppinions are very much welcomed!

Thank you.

[Erny]

The problem is that she has Seperation Anxiety and will go mental - running around in circles and barking - whenever someone tries to leave or comes home.

How long after you leave does she continue to go (as you put it) "mental"?

How long after you return does it take for her to settle down?

Who gave your dog the diagnosis of "Separation Anxiety"?

I think THAT needs sorting (ie whether it is really SA or not) before any one can help with your question about getting a second pup/dog.

Succinctly though - yes, behaviours can be learnt by one from another. On the other hand, for true SA cases, the addition of another animal can assist. But SA being the condition that it is may not be helped at all by the addition of another animal.

SA is over diagnosed IMO and people tend to think that any anxiety that happens when people leave has to be SA. That's not as often the case as you might think, which is a good thing and this is why I suggest initialising with the above questions. A visit by a behaviourist might be what you need and it might prove best if you do this before getting a pup because if there is something that you might be doing that you would be best not be doing or vice versa, it will be much much easier to solve the existing dog's problem before introducing a second dog. The second dog might learn off the first and might also be affected by things you are doing and which could be done differently.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Erny

[persephone]

Agree with erny. You need to have a professional diagnosis first. Whether your JRT has sep.anxiety or if you need to learn how to manage her other behaviours needs to be done before you get a new puppy ...as you have wisely noted .

If you tell us where you are located , a professional may be recommended for you to contact .Once you know why and what you litte dog is doing, then you can work on it, and will then have a better idea of when to get a new puppy

[Bellio]

I have not had a behaviouralist have a look at the JRT. I have looked at a few websites though, including - http://www.dogtech.com.au/les-treuer.html can anybody recommend this company? Or another in Sydney?

The JRT (her name is Joey) was given to my boyfriend and his brother as a puppy 9 years ago and grew up with his family. When she was 9 months old she was involved in a car accident that has left her with 3 legs. From what he has told me, the behaviour started shortly after this. I have assumed that it was this event has triggered something in her - and therefore I thought it was S.A. as it was not a learned behaviour. I think that my boyfriends family have made this worse by fussing over her when leaving and when returning. And this has been going on for the last 8 years!

I have grown up always with only 1 dog at a time, so I wasn't sure how easily influenced puppies were by older dogs. I don't want to bring a puppy into an environment where its going to learn negative behaviours.

[Erny]

I have not had a behaviouralist have a look at the JRT. I have looked at a few websites though, including - http://www.dogtech.com.au/les-treuer.html can anybody recommend this company? Or another in Sydney?

The only person that I know in NSW and whom I could confidently recommend for the job is Steve Courtney - K9 Pro K9 Pro . Dogtech is a franchise company. It's not the name of the company that counts, it is the person behind it .... the one who sees you and your dog. Consequently I couldn't recommend the company as I don't know the experience of the person concerned.

The JRT (her name is Joey) was given to my boyfriend and his brother as a puppy 9 years ago and grew up with his family. When she was 9 months old she was involved in a car accident that has left her with 3 legs. From what he has told me, the behaviour started shortly after this. I have assumed that it was this event has triggered something in her - and therefore I thought it was S.A. as it was not a learned behaviour. I think that my boyfriends family have made this worse by fussing over her when leaving and when returning. And this has been going on for the last 8 years!

I would suggest this (refer my highlight) probably has a large part to do with it, if not being fully responsible for it. That's why I'm suggesting you see someone who would be able to confirm one way or the other and set you on the right path.

You could try a couple of things though (but you'll need to be persistent and consistent or it will fail) ....

1. Ignore Joey for a full 30 minutes before leaving. Make no fuss about going.
   
2. Ignore Joey on your return. Wait until he tires of trying to get your attention (could take a while initially, given he's learnt the opposite, but once he realises his over the top excitement won't work, he'll give up. Once he's given up and gone somewhere else, leave him be for 60 seconds and provided he's not tried to get your attention by being over the top again in the meanwhile, bend down to his level and call him over. Keep it calm, but you are then free to interact with him.
   
3. Follow the NILIF program (Nothing In Life Is Free). This is about giving Joey jobs to do before you do anything for him. Basic sit; drop; rollover; shake paw; ..... randomise what you ask for depending on what he knows, what you're in the midst of teaching him and how much time you have.
   

Note that "ignore" means "no speak; no touch and NO EYE CONTACT".

The Triangle of Temptation (TOT) is another great program to use. Refer to the pinned items at the top of the Training Forum here.

I have grown up always with only 1 dog at a time, so I wasn't sure how easily influenced puppies were by older dogs. I don't want to bring a puppy into an environment where its going to learn negative behaviours.

I think you've done well to ask first. Sure - it could turn out to be a simple solution and a happy ending for you, but if it doesn't, it will mean double trouble. So you've taken a very first wise step in checking things out first.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Erny

[corvus]

The only person that I know in NSW and whom I could confidently recommend for the job is Steve Courtney - K9 Pro K9 Pro . Dogtech is a franchise company. It's not the name of the company that counts, it is the person behind it .... the one who sees you and your dog. Consequently I couldn't recommend the company as I don't know the experience of the person concerned.

Not to discredit Steve Courtney, but he's not a veterinary behaviourist. I think suspected SA cases should be assessed by a vet behaviourist because sometimes drugs can make the difference between success and failure. SA is notoriously difficult to treat. The literature on it is surprisingly not that extensive, and I think it is in general not well understood. Unfortunately, vet behaviourists in Sydney are outrageously expensive and have long waiting lists. Most of the benefit to be gained from seeing one for SA is early drug intervention to get that anxiety down before it creates a rigid habit. Given Joey has been exhibiting this problem for 8 years, I think it's safe to say there's no such thing as early intervention anymore. I think there is still a benefit in seeing a vet behaviourist because drugs may well be appropriate, but perhaps it's not economical to go to the expensive potential solution first if time is not a huge issue.

First thing I'd do is tape Joey after everyone leaves to see how quickly she settles down if at all. If she calms down on her own within a few minutes of everyone leaving and goes to sleep, then your problem is probably not SA. SA kind of by definition requires the dog to be distressed while separated from the owner(s). That's not to say the problem is therefore not an anxiety-related problem, though. I imagine any behaviourist you get in will want to do that anyway. You may as well gather that information yourself first. If she's not distressed when everyone is out, at least you know to look hard at your behaviour around leaving and returning and start training for calm behaviour at those times. Sometimes it helps if the dog gets a special toy or treat when they are left alone, like a Kong. In our house, we enforce a "no greetings until everyone is in control of themselves" rule that has been very easy to teach. No access to us is given to the dogs until they are in a sit or down and quietly waiting. This is to prevent wild greetings from our little guy who gets a bit excitable. I don't like wild greetings.

[Erny]

Not to discredit Steve Courtney, but he's not a veterinary behaviourist.

No ..... but he has a truck load of experiences supported by loads of successes and that is something which gives me the confidence to recommend him. I'm certain that if he thought drug therapy was necessary he would refer. Not to forget the fact that this might not be SA (I've already raised that in my earlier post). The dog is older, for sure, but change in older dogs is still very possible (without drug therapy) and I know that myself through first hand experiences as well. And I'm not a Veterinary Behaviourist either.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Erny

[montall]

I have no idea if your boyfriend's dog has separation anxiety or not, but for what it's worth I'll chuck in my experience with one of mine that certainly had 'issues' being left alone.

I would leave Monty for a couple of hours to go shopping and he would be fine about my leaving, or so it seemed, and would greet me excitedly when I came home, but not particularly over the top. But ... one day I decided to leave one of those voice recorders running while I was gone to see if he stayed as calm as he appeared to be. What a shock. He howled and yelped the entire time I was gone, and only stopped when he heard me coming back. I had always intended to get a second dog, I like to have at least two, but his behaviour hastened the purchase of the second one a bit. Having a little friend (Tallulah) worked like a charm for him, but I didn't get a puppy, although he wasn't much more than a puppy himself, (he was only six months old when we got him, about nine months when we got the second dog). Tallulah is about the same age, only a month between them. Later on I got Effie who is three years older than the other two.

I'm not sure I would go for a puppy as a companion for an nine year old dog, but that's just me.

Edited December 29, 2010 by montall

[corvus]

Not to discredit Steve Courtney, but he's not a veterinary behaviourist.

I'm certain that if he thought drug therapy was necessary he would refer.

In that case it would probably work out quicker and cheaper to go straight to the VB, wouldn't it? My point was that if someone has limited money or time they should take into consideration what a VB can provide that might be relevant and decide whether they go to a quicker, cheaper trainer first or straight to the VB. It's kind of like deciding whether you want to pay more for an extra feature or two without knowing if you will ever need them. I for one always find that a frustrating scenario and for me the only answer is more information to help me make a decision. In my post I tried to offer that with objective reasons why you might choose one over the other. From what I've heard, there's no questioning the expertise of either. The VBs in Sydney have excellent reputations as well. The issue is whether you decide your resources are better spent on a cheaper trainer that may have to refer or a more expensive VB that won't refer because they are who would be referred to in the first place. As you say, and I also said, we don't know if it is SA. Nor does the OP. Which is why I suggested videoing the behaviour. The OP may even be able to get a trainer to look at the video for free and advise whether it's worth them coming out for a consult.

[Erny]

In that case it would probably work out quicker and cheaper to go straight to the VB, wouldn't it?

No actually - that's not necessarily the case.

Regardless, I'd rather go to a Behaviourist who someone can confidently recommend (and have really good reason to recommend them) rather than just be told 'Vet/Behaviourist because your dog might need drugs as well'.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Erny

[corvus]

Regardless, I'd rather go to a Behaviourist who someone can confidently recommend (and have really good reason to recommend them) rather than just be told 'Vet/Behaviourist because your dog might need drugs as well'.

By all reports Dr Seksel is exceptional. That's a pretty good reason to recommend her. However you appear to have missed the bit where I pointed out it may be more economical at this point to skip the VB. I think Seksel and Ley charge about twice as much as anyone else and I hear the waiting list is very long. They are an option, though, and probably a good one if video tapes reveal long periods of anxiety. I would confidently recommend them. I have.