Bullbreedlover Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Did I hear the right when they said that RSPCA was making moves to have Inbreeding banned? If this is the case, what is being done to counteract that? They managed to steam roller tail docking, what's going to stop them from this little vendetta? Nothing will stop them really. They are a law unto themselves From what I can remember it was said that ANKC were (at that time) still making a decision on that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dory the Doted One Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 So what will they class as inbreeding? Personally I've never really liked seeing Mother/Son, Father/Daughter matings or Brother/sister, and even Aunt/Nephews, Uncle/Neice is a little close. Are they just going to ban those close ones? Or is it no common dogs in the first 5 generations? And on the topic of that segment...all the problems of that dog and no one mentioned it was OBSESE? PLUS...the hordes of SWFs that have had cherry eye, skin problems....etc.....and so many SWF's are crosses of crosses of crosses that surely we should be seeing a decrease. Let's not even mention that a vast majority of them have crappy bites and dentition...and we won't mention the knees either. It was a slanted piece of journalism for sure, and that's even forgiving the fact that it was a very short segment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappielover Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 "Show ring judges should and do place health as an extremely important aspect of judging pedigree dogs". Mita, could you please explain this further - in what ways do you think judges ascertain the health of a dog in the show ring? I realize they check bites and make decisions about whether a dog's conformation is satisfactory. They also check for two testicles on a male dog. In what other ways do you think they determine the health status of an individual dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Quickest answer - Idiot: Your purebred dog is inbred Me: Hmm her COI is 10%... your cross bred dog could be more inbred, especially since you can't prove it's heritage. I know it won't work in relity but I like the theory :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubiton Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Th eonly reason to watch that show is to get yourself angry. I will say on a recent bondi vet the bloke did make it clear (without being nasty) that the female dog having puppies needed to be desexed instead of this woman breeding collie x some kin dof pointer crosses. You saw it briefly when he mentioned he would take the dam of the puppies (for desexing when the woman asked which one he wanted if he could) and then a bit later when she said 'all the hard works done' (and he made another commetn on the side). So he got brownie points for that. As for the 7pm project - cannot believe people still watch that and channel 10 are being reported as plannign to drop Sandra Sully and George negus as cost cutting measures..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) "Show ring judges should and do place health as an extremely important aspect of judging pedigree dogs". Mita, could you please explain this further - in what ways do you think judges ascertain the health of a dog in the show ring? I can't explain it further, lappie, because that quote is not from me. Edited June 30, 2011 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappielover Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 "Show ring judges should and do place health as an extremely important aspect of judging pedigree dogs". Mita, could you please explain this further - in what ways do you think judges ascertain the health of a dog in the show ring? I can't explain it further, lappie, because that quote is not from me. Lol! My apologies! thanks for pointing out my error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) PLUS...the hordes of SWFs that have had cherry eye, skin problems....etc.....and so many SWF's are crosses of crosses of crosses that surely we should be seeing a decrease. Let's not even mention that a vast majority of them have crappy bites and dentition...and we won't mention the knees either. Absolutely right. Every time these 'horrors of the purebred world' come up in such programs.....it's never a matter of 'compared with what.' Which leaves the impression that all dogs from any other source except the purebred breeders, must be OK. Those hosts of small fluffy- dog crosses are out there in their thousands. And where's the evidence that the puppy-farmers & BYBs which produce them, have in-depth knowledge about the genetics of what they're doing? Who's keeping tabs on their health problems? One vet remarked to me, he couldn't understand why people were continuing to buy them.....when there were well- bred, small purebred dogs. I was at a doggie event recently, attended by lots of caring, pet-owners with their dogs. OK, I can't read too much into what I noticed because it could just be a once-only at that particular event. But... Lots of larger medium to large dogs there....& they were nearly all pretty sure purebreds. Border collies, labradors, german shepherds, dalmatian, rottie, golden retrievers, a ridgeback....& so on. Lots of small fluffies, too. But most looked like the small fluffy mixes. The obvious purebreds you could count on one hand. My pair of tibbies, a pair of dachies, a pair of small poodles, a bichon and a cavalier. Edited June 30, 2011 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Lol! My apologies! thanks for pointing out my error. No worries, lappie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 "Show ring judges should and do place health as an extremely important aspect of judging pedigree dogs". Mita, could you please explain this further - in what ways do you think judges ascertain the health of a dog in the show ring? I realize they check bites and make decisions about whether a dog's conformation is satisfactory. They also check for two testicles on a male dog. In what other ways do you think they determine the health status of an individual dog? Lappielover In judging pedigree dogs in the show ring, judges are not only checking for teeth and testicles. Although to be fair some judges only do that. Soundness, type, temperament and style. In soundness many aspects can make a dog unsound. A dog who is lame, a dog who has entropian, a dog who has an unstable temperament for that particular breed, a dog who can not breathe adequately to name just a few. These and other aspects are all part of judging.Conformation in each individual breed is not just whether or not a dog can gait around the ring. Judges have the power to non award classes and non award Challenge certificates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oskar & Zsa Zsa Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I didn't catch all of it, but from what I saw, it certainly took a very selective view of what was obviously an underexercised over fed dog. No wonder it had skin and breathing issues!! But, once again, I didn't see too much sting in what the show portrayed. It was certainly selective in it's balance and balanced opinion was said, but said rapidly and was difficult to hear or pick up mixed in with all the negatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starkehre Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 "Show ring judges should and do place health as an extremely important aspect of judging pedigree dogs". Mita, could you please explain this further - in what ways do you think judges ascertain the health of a dog in the show ring? I realize they check bites and make decisions about whether a dog's conformation is satisfactory. They also check for two testicles on a male dog. In what other ways do you think they determine the health status of an individual dog? Lappielover In judging pedigree dogs in the show ring, judges are not only checking for teeth and testicles. Although to be fair some judges only do that. Soundness, type, temperament and style. In soundness many aspects can make a dog unsound. A dog who is lame, a dog who has entropian, a dog who has an unstable temperament for that particular breed, a dog who can not breathe adequately to name just a few. These and other aspects are all part of judging.Conformation in each individual breed is not just whether or not a dog can gait around the ring. Judges have the power to non award classes and non award Challenge certificates. bbl, I would LOVE to believe this and in essense I do as an ideal, but sadly week in, week out I see lame dogs put up for CC and BOB. Very disappointing really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullbreedlover Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 "Show ring judges should and do place health as an extremely important aspect of judging pedigree dogs". Mita, could you please explain this further - in what ways do you think judges ascertain the health of a dog in the show ring? I realize they check bites and make decisions about whether a dog's conformation is satisfactory. They also check for two testicles on a male dog. In what other ways do you think they determine the health status of an individual dog? Lappielover In judging pedigree dogs in the show ring, judges are not only checking for teeth and testicles. Although to be fair some judges only do that. Soundness, type, temperament and style. In soundness many aspects can make a dog unsound. A dog who is lame, a dog who has entropian, a dog who has an unstable temperament for that particular breed, a dog who can not breathe adequately to name just a few. These and other aspects are all part of judging.Conformation in each individual breed is not just whether or not a dog can gait around the ring. Judges have the power to non award classes and non award Challenge certificates. bbl, I would LOVE to believe this and in essense I do as an ideal, but sadly week in, week out I see lame dogs put up for CC and BOB. Very disappointing really. I hear you Sadly though yes that is true in some cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakway Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 "Show ring judges should and do place health as an extremely important aspect of judging pedigree dogs". Mita, could you please explain this further - in what ways do you think judges ascertain the health of a dog in the show ring? I realize they check bites and make decisions about whether a dog's conformation is satisfactory. They also check for two testicles on a male dog. In what other ways do you think they determine the health status of an individual dog? Lappielover In judging pedigree dogs in the show ring, judges are not only checking for teeth and testicles. Although to be fair some judges only do that. Soundness, type, temperament and style. In soundness many aspects can make a dog unsound. A dog who is lame, a dog who has entropian, a dog who has an unstable temperament for that particular breed, a dog who can not breathe adequately to name just a few. These and other aspects are all part of judging.Conformation in each individual breed is not just whether or not a dog can gait around the ring. Judges have the power to non award classes and non award Challenge certificates. Totally true. Pardon me, but was that a British Bulldog ? and if it was, was it bred by a ANKC registered breeder, or was it and Australian job ?. A breed not recognised by the ANKC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Did I hear the right when they said that RSPCA was making moves to have Inbreeding banned? If this is the case, what is being done to counteract that? They managed to steam roller tail docking, what's going to stop them from this little vendetta? Well all dogs in the kennel club are inbred. And every breeding of kennel club dogs is doing inbreeding. By definition pedigree dogs are inbred animals. However if they made a law that limited the amount of inbreeding to what is considered safe in humans, I would support that across all breeds. I think that would be a good step in the right direction and would prefer that the ANKC made the change without the RSPCA having to make it a big pulbic welfare issue and a law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxiewolf Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I wont watch it. It will just make me too mad. I'll just prepare for the fallout of idiocy these shows create. Suddenly every Sally Spectator and Joe Public is an expert on the "deep dark world" of Pedigree dogs and anything you say different is just.. *gasp* lies. Where's the pedigree "anything" exposed special... what.. don't the masses care that the Arabian horse is only descended from 5 major strains? and outcrossing was strictly forbidden? but but but.. don't we care about how inbred they must be? What about how closely Inbred some endangered species will end up as a result of humans trying to bring them back from the destruction we caused? oh guess that's not important either. Animals Inbreed, thats a fact. Wild animals do it. Wolves have genetic diseases (but we are too busy killing them off or at least trying to to even care..) Oh sorry... must be just dogs this year. Glad I didnt watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) What about how closely Inbred some endangered species will end up as a result of humans trying to bring them back from the destruction we caused? Exactly as we now know that inbreeding has a detrimental effect on threatened species. Our results have important conservation implications. First, ignoring inbreeding depression will substantially underestimate extinction risk. http://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol6/iss1/art16/main.html#relationship Inbreeding is a big risk for threatened animals. Thank goodness domestic dogs as a species are not threatened!! And thank goodness dog 'breeds' are not separate species. We can open our stud books (a model only in our minds) and cross bred to another breed of dog to reduce COI, remove or control a genetic disease, to modify an extreme trait or to remove defect traits which are wide spread in a breed and many other uses, in any of our breeds. Tthere is no reason to skirt the dangerous world of inbred threatened species with our dog breeds. If we allowed it, there is no problem keeping genetic diversity in any 'breed 'of dogs. But we do no allow it and currently there are more than few dog 'breeds' that are considered threatened. We just have to use this current science and cast aside the ideas and science of 100-150 years ago. We have moved on and now we need to bring our dog breeding practices up to date. Edited June 30, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 What about how closely Inbred some endangered species will end up as a result of humans trying to bring them back from the destruction we caused? Exactly as we now know that inbreeding has a detrimental effect on threatened species. Our results have important conservation implications. First, ignoring inbreeding depression will substantially underestimate extinction risk. http://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol6/iss1/art16/main.html#relationship Inbreeding is a big risk for threatened animals. Thank goodness domestic dogs as a species are not threatened!! And thank goodness dog 'breeds' are not separate species. We can open our stud books (a model only in our minds) and cross bred to another breed of dog to reduce COI, remove or control a genetic disease, to modify an extreme trait or to remove defect traits which are wide spread in a breed and many other uses, in any of our breeds. Tthere is no reason to skirt the dangerous world of inbred threatened species with our dog breeds. If we allowed it, there is no problem keeping genetic diversity in any 'breed 'of dogs. But we do no allow it and currently there are more than few dog 'breeds' that are considered threatened. We just have to use this current science and cast aside the ideas and science of 100-150 years ago. We have moved on and now we need to bring our dog breeding practices up to date. I don't disagree with this in principle; however, as wheaten terrier people found, crossbreeding to another breed is not a magic bullet to remove or control genetic disease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) What about how closely Inbred some endangered species will end up as a result of humans trying to bring them back from the destruction we caused? Exactly as we now know that inbreeding has a detrimental effect on threatened species. Our results have important conservation implications. First, ignoring inbreeding depression will substantially underestimate extinction risk. http://www.ecologyandsociety.org/vol6/iss1/art16/main.html#relationship Inbreeding is a big risk for threatened animals. Thank goodness domestic dogs as a species are not threatened!! And thank goodness dog 'breeds' are not separate species. We can open our stud books (a model only in our minds) and cross bred to another breed of dog to reduce COI, remove or control a genetic disease, to modify an extreme trait or to remove defect traits which are wide spread in a breed and many other uses, in any of our breeds. Tthere is no reason to skirt the dangerous world of inbred threatened species with our dog breeds. If we allowed it, there is no problem keeping genetic diversity in any 'breed 'of dogs. But we do no allow it and currently there are more than few dog 'breeds' that are considered threatened. We just have to use this current science and cast aside the ideas and science of 100-150 years ago. We have moved on and now we need to bring our dog breeding practices up to date. I don't disagree with this in principle; however, as wheaten terrier people found, crossbreeding to another breed is not a magic bullet to remove or control genetic disease. A controlled outcross is not the answer for every disease in every breed, but it certainly could be the answer for many of the diseases in many breeds. That is the real point and not that it may not work for some disease. What I find really frustrating is even in the case of the Dalmatian, where the work has been done and successfully, most breeder would rather breed dogs with disease than use a dog with a cross some 10-13 or more generations ago and prevent the disease in their dogs. It boggles the mind. Personally I think any breeder who refuses to bring the healthy genes into their Dals should be banned. I guess it will take the RSPCA to make it a welfare issue and get a government law made first. It may take a new generation of dog breeders to effect some of the needed changes. I just hope that breeding for 'breeds' is not totally banned by then and that most breeds are not already lost or are too far gone before we start to see the needed changes happen. Edited June 30, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I don't disagree with this in principle; however, as wheaten terrier people found, crossbreeding to another breed is not a magic bullet to remove or control genetic disease. A controlled outcross is not the answer for every disease in every breed, but it certainly could be the answer for many of the diseases in many breeds. That is the real point and not that it may not work for some disease. What I find really frustrating is even in the case of the Dalmatian, where the work has been done and successfully, most breeder would rather breed dogs with disease than use a dog with a cross some 10-13 or more generations ago and prevent the disease in their dogs. It boggles the mind. Personally I think any breeder who refuses to bring the healthy genes into their Dals should be banned. I guess it will take the RSPCA to make it a welfare issue and get a government law made first. It may take a new generation of dog breeders to effect some of the needed changes. I just hope that breeding for 'breeds' is not totally banned by then and that most breeds are not already lost or are too far gone before we start to see the needed changes happen. The same objections are being raised currently over the backcross project for IRWS and that's a cross to an irish setter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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