Council Seizing & Destroying Staffy's

[Saffioraire]

I know there has been a similar thread lately but I can't find it sorry.

My friend tried to register her two American Staffy's today, and was impolitely informed that if she cannot provide papers for them she MUST declare them dangerous dogs or they will be declared Pit Bull Terriers, seized by the council and PTS. The dogs come from a long line of dogs bred by this family (for generations) however they don't have ANKC papers. The council has recently implemented laws to say any Staffy without papers is to be declared a dangerous dog, or it will be treated as a Pit Bull and PTS. They are also sending a member to every home with a registered Staffy to assess whether the dog is a Staffy or a PBT and if they decide the dog is a PBT it will be seized on the spot and PTS.

I remember reading people posting links to state and federal law which over-rides council law.

If you could please post these links again it will be greatly appreciated. (This is not Geelong, this is the Shire of Yarra Ranges.)

[Staranais]

I'm sorry, I can't help. There is a thread about this in the news forum at the moment with a couple of other owners in a similar spot. Maybe have a look there in case some of them know more?

Edited September 28, 2011 by Staranais

[megan_]

Something is amiss- she has a few choices. She can:

1. Get a vet to sign a declaration that they are not pitbulls, and therefore just get normal ergo OR

2. she can register them as a restricted breed (not dangerous dog) and live with the rules around that (no offleash etc).

The council can only PTS dogs that aren't registered by Friday. However, if she just does normal ergo and then the council decides they are pitbulls or crosses, then the can PTS.

[megan_]

Regarding dogs already registered as staffies, the council has to honor that ergo for the remainder of the registration year. Once that is up, then the council will determine whether the dog has PB in it ornot.

[megan_]

Also, these are state laws, joy council laws

[sandgrubber]

The processes leave a lot to local level animal control officers, and aren't reliable. Once a dog is pts, appeal is a lost cause.

From a legal perspective, a staffy X (or boxer x Labrador, or other dog that looks something like an APBT) is a 'chattel' with value something like that of a second hand TV. Destroying it is nothing. No value placed on sentience; no value on the heartache to people whose family members are executed. Guess I sound like an animal libber . . . but where the hell are the animal rights people on this one. If animals have rights, certainly this is an affront of the worst kind . . . summary execution based on appearance alone. Taking away of pets acquired from rescues, with no warning at the time of adoption that the dog was to be condemned either to a restricted life, or death for non-registration.

I am horrified and astounded that people aren't up in arms about this stupid, stupid law and how it is being implemented. . . . that there's more outrage about the PM being given a DD pup as a b'day present.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Vets aren't under any obligation to issue a letter stating a dog is not a Pit Bull, so DNA testing is pertinent, I think.

[JulesP]

Vets aren't under any obligation to issue a letter stating a dog is not a Pit Bull, so DNA testing is pertinent, I think.

Isn't the DNA profile of a Amstaff the same as a Pit bulls?

[MalteseLuna]

Vets aren't under any obligation to issue a letter stating a dog is not a Pit Bull, so DNA testing is pertinent, I think.

Isn't the DNA profile of a Amstaff the same as a Pit bulls?

I very much doubt any of the current DNA tests can confirm whether the dog is a Amstaff vs a Pitbull.

I cannot believe such laws have been written and are now being enforced. Hopefully the public will catch on and the government will have to undo the laws.

It's not the breed it's generally the owner/upbringing (or a combination of the two) etc etc.

[The Spotted Devil]

I heard Sylvia Power (Dogs Vic) on radio this morning pointing out that DNA testing is not helpful.

A rep from the municipal association that represents local councils has received advice that blood DNA tests may be useful at identifying Amstaffs (rather than salivary DNA tests) and preventing them from being classified as a restricted breed dogs. However, he agreed that it would not help identify Pitbull type dogs. He was waiting on more advice from labs/vets etc.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I heard Sylvia Power (Dogs Vic) on radio this morning pointing out that DNA testing is not helpful.

A rep from the municipal association that represents local councils has received advice that blood DNA tests may be useful at identifying Amstaffs (rather than salivary DNA tests) and preventing them from being classified as a restricted breed dogs. However, he agreed that it would not help identify Pitbull type dogs. He was waiting on more advice from labs/vets etc.

That's what I was implying - it may help you if you have a dog that would be classified under the test but is actually a mix of other breeds.

I head there was no DNA profile for Pit Bulls - but since I can't remember where I heard it, it's not particularly valid.

[dancinbcs]

Vets aren't under any obligation to issue a letter stating a dog is not a Pit Bull, so DNA testing is pertinent, I think.

Isn't the DNA profile of a Amstaff the same as a Pit bulls?

The only way DNA would establish if a dog is an Amstaff is if it is from ANKC registered parents and you can prove parentage. No vet could declare the difference between them either. They are essentially the same breed descended from the same foundation dogs through different lines bred for different purposes. The APBT as working dogs and the Amstaffs as show dogs, so without ANKC registration and a microchip to match there is no way to positively indentify any dog as an Amstaff. The ANKC registered Amstaffs escaped being a banned breed because the breeders claimed to have bred for a different temperament for many generations and no ANKC registered dogs have been involved in any of the attacks that sparked the dangerous dog laws.

If they don't have ANKC papers the owners really have no idea what their dog is. Same applies to any non-registered dog of any breed. It may look like a particular breed but unless it is a registered pure bred dog then it could have anything in it.

[Bartok]

They can deem them pittbulls but the dog cant be destroyed unless it has undergone a

breed assessment and then temp test

If it is deemed a X breed (and fails temp tes) then the only person who can authorise to destroy the dog

is a judge. That is in NSW though

I would have a DNA test done and use that as evidence

Unless you have the papers proving the dogs lineage then it makes no

difference what is on a michrochip. You can have it as a Lab X monkey and

if a ranger deems it a Pittbull then sadly they can force the breed assessment and

temp assessment. At your expense

I only know this as i went through it with a rescue dog i had rehomed and

it was really scary

The pound had chipped her as a Dane X - she got out and the council ranger

that picked her up impounded her and then her owners had to have everything

done to prove that because he said she was a pittbull that she wasnt

[Ruffles]

Councils dont know what the hell they are doing, they also cannot seize any registered dog 'on the spot' and put it to sleep. People need to educate themselves on their rights because the Government certainly aren't going to do it for you.

Please see the attached image (print it out, stick it on your fridge!), taken from City of Casey website and produced by the DPI. It helps show the facts of the matter, and everyone who owns ANY kind of dog that looks to have a bull breed in it, needs to become familiar with it very quickly!

Also, please be aware that DNA testing is NOT acceptable proof for the purpose of this law. And, just as an FYI, they can differentiate between Australian Bred AST's and APBT, there is a different genetic marker. ASTCV investigated this ages ago, but its irrelevant as councils wont accept DNA proof anyway.

ETA: You will be hard pressed to find a Vet who will write a declaration that your dog is not an APBT. They have been advised against it by the AVA as there could be massive liability issues involved. Sucks, but thats the fact of the matter so dont rely on it happening to protect your dog.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Ruffles

[Staranais]

Yes, there's really no way a vet can tell that your dog isn't a pitbull cross just by looking at the dog, any more than anyone else can. Chances are the vast majority of vets won't be prepared to write a declaration declaring that a dog is not a pitbull, when they have no idea whether it is or isn't.

Is a ridiculous, and very sad, decision by the council.

[GeckoTree]

people might have to pop across the border for a vet cert?

[sandgrubber]

On the DNA question . . . Here's from the company that does breed identification tests (I've posted this before, but I can't remember where, so here it goes again).

Mars Veterinary kindly sent the following response to questions re their "Wisdom Panel" and it's ability to identify the American Pit Bull Terrier using DNA Profiling:

"Thank you for contacting Mars Veterinary.

The term “Pitbull” does not refer to a single or recognized breed of dog, but rather to a genetically diverse group of breeds. Pit bull type dogs have historically been bred by combining guarding type breeds with terriers for certain desired characteristics – and as such they may retain many genetic similarities to the likely progenitor breeds and other closely related breeds. If a pit bull type dog were tested, we might anticipate that the Wisdom Panel test might detect and report moderate to trace amounts of one or more distantly related breeds to those used to breed the dog, it is possible that one or more of the following breeds might be detected at moderate to trace amounts: the American Staffordshire terrier, Boston terrier, Bull terrier, Staffordshire Bull terrier, Mastiff, Bullmastiff Boxer, Bulldog and various small terriers like the Parson Russell. These breeds would be detected because some markers in these breeds have genetic identity at a minority of the markers the Wisdom Panel test uses to the breeds in our database.

Mars Veterinary’s analysis of the many Pitbull type breeds, which are known to be closely related, indicates that this diverse group of dogs could be one or a mixture of American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull terrier, Boston Terrier and some Bulldog. Due to the genetic diversity of this group, we cannot build a DNA profile for the Pitbull. Any Pitbull type breed tested using Wisdom Panel™ MX Mixed Breed Analysis is likely to reveal a combination of several breeds. For example, a Pitbull type breed might show up as 25% Boston Terrier, 25% American Staffordshire Terrier and 50% unknown.

Of course, if the parents are registered, you could do paternity tests.

[megan_]

DNA testing is not considered proof under the Vic laws. The only way in Vic to prove that your dog isn't a pitbull is to either have the pedigreed certificate or a vet certificate.

[zara]

Although this legislation can unfairly effect owners and dogs of the type targeted, at least now they have recognised the dogs involved in savage attacks are actually cross breeds of Pitbull like appearance and are not genuine APBT's as the media sensationalise them all to be and does represent a more accurate account of the situation.

The legislation also guides people towards registered breeders producing papered Bull breedings which I think is a step in the right direction for the improvement of temperament quality in the types of breeds targeted. BYB crossbreeds in comparison to the breeding of dogs by breed enthusiasts and specialst breeders has no comparison and if the trend becomes to own Bull breeds without the potential of having dogs seized and misidentified means buying papered dogs from registered breeders in the long term is a good thing?.

The market is cluttered with Bull cross breeds either free or very cheap that attracts the irresponsible, although there will be irresponsible owners of all types and breeds, it's more prominent from anything I have seen that dogs easily and cheaply attained and in plentiful supply are taken care of less responsibly than papered breedings that people have waited for and saved the money to buy because they really want one. There is a big difference with a BYB popping up for someone who aquires a dog on impulse or takes on a dog falling into their lap they were never dedicated to look after properly in the first place and I think perhaps if getting a dog meant going to registered breeders, undergoing suitability tests and paying the required money for a well bred dog, many of the irresponsible who don't train their dogs, let them escape the yard and act aggressively without behaviourist intervention etc etc, may choose a cat instead.

Buying a dog I think needs to be directed towards people who really want a dog and are prepared to do the right thing raising and training a dog and the harder it becomes for people to get a dog on a whim or having one fall into their laps cheap and easily the better?

Edited September 29, 2011 by zara

[Ruffles]

Although this legislation can unfairly effect owners and dogs of the type targeted, at least now they have recognised the dogs involved in savage attacks are actually cross breeds of Pitbull like appearance and are not genuine APBT's as the media sensationalise them all to be and does represent a more accurate account of the situation.

The legislation also guides people towards registered breeders producing papered Bull breedings which I think is a step in the right direction for the imnprovement of temperament quality in the types of breeds targeted. BYB crossbreeds in comparison to the breeding of dogs by breed enthusiasts and specialst breeders has no comparison and if the trend becomes to own Bull breeds without the potential of having dogs seized and misidentified means buying papered dogs from registered breeders in the long term is a good thing?.

Whilst I see what you are saying, there an already an abundance of unethical, puppy milling, AST breeders around, and this is just going to make the situation worse! I fear it will only be a matter of time before one of these dogs that is breed for money, without health or temperament in mind, and who is sold to the highest bidder will be the next thing splashed all over the newspaper.