kelpiesrule Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Awesome! The return of petrol Grand Champions.... So I am curious as to what defines a petrol Champion/Grand Champion? Do we just assume that those that cannot win groups are running all over looking for easy wins? There are people who compete only in the Metro always and have very little competition, (or those that always win easily in their breed) but are unable to crack the groups, but they pick up their breed wins and therefor the 1000 points. Are these petrol Champions? What about those that have a huge amount of Runnerup in Group or runnerup in show wins? But they still get their 1000 points? Are they petrol champions? Would you call someone who say picks up approx 20pt breed wins and lots of RUBIG a petrol Champion? What about those that are now chasing the group wins to qualify for the new titles, they are the ones travelling all over the country side chasing judges and small shows to get the wins. Why are they not called petrol Champions? I dont understand why we are lumping everyone in the same box. I am all for bringing back the old rules of Grand Champion and bringing in a Supreme Champion.. it makes everyone happy, well almost.. there are always going to be those that just complain for the sake of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TessnSean Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Huge round of applause for that post, kelpiesrule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissMonaro Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Awesome! The return of petrol Grand Champions.... So I am curious as to what defines a petrol Champion/Grand Champion? Do we just assume that those that cannot win groups are running all over looking for easy wins? There are people who compete only in the Metro always and have very little competition, (or those that always win easily in their breed) but are unable to crack the groups, but they pick up their breed wins and therefor the 1000 points. Are these petrol Champions? What about those that have a huge amount of Runnerup in Group or runnerup in show wins? But they still get their 1000 points? Are they petrol champions? Would you call someone who say picks up approx 20pt breed wins and lots of RUBIG a petrol Champion? What about those that are now chasing the group wins to qualify for the new titles, they are the ones travelling all over the country side chasing judges and small shows to get the wins. Why are they not called petrol Champions? I dont understand why we are lumping everyone in the same box. I am all for bringing back the old rules of Grand Champion and bringing in a Supreme Champion.. it makes everyone happy, well almost.. there are always going to be those that just complain for the sake of it. KR There are dogs that are worthy of being Grand Champions as they are great ambassadors and great examples for "their" breed....If ppl are now given the incentive to keep going towards a Grand, then hopefully numbers will pick back up again. Lets hope !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirawee Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I was going to try to get a "petrol Grand Champion" under the current rules... we were going to go from WA to Vic to try and get a 25 point CC since there is no hope of us getting that here given our biggest entry is around 6 dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggy Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Every time there is a posting about GC titles, those who post have the strong opinion that the title should be tougher to obtain. Just so readers are in no doubt that they are more than qualified to express an educated opinion, we are also told about the number of GC's they have. Congratulations. Having a GC would be quite an achievement. Another topic discussed often is the declining attendance at shows. I think returning to the old system will keep people showing. As a case in point, I have two dogs here who have in excess of 250 points each. I said to my husband in the past week that once we did the shows they are currently entered for that I would stop showing them as there was nowhere to go with them. They win their far share of in group classes but I rarely see the breed take off Group or In Show. Should the old system return, I will strongly consider keeping going. It is fine if those with a Poodle, Lab, Sibe, Cav, Akita, Staffie, etc want to make it tougher fora GC title. You have plenty of opportunities of 25 point challenges and your breeds are popular choices for in group or in show. I counted up the dogs for a few of the rarer breeds at the last two Royals and neither would have been a 25 point challenge. When was the last time you heard of a Leonberger, Pharoah Hound, Tibetan Mastiff, Belgian Sheherd taking out a group if BIS award? Not very often. Shouldn't they have an opportunity at a Grand title if they want to get out there and show? What does it matter If a dog that isn't your choice is a GC title holder? What does it matter to you if they get stud fees to their dog supposedly because of the title but you don't stand your dog anyway? I believe that you should all think outside your own breeds and start thinking about the whole dog world. It is all very well to say that a good dog will win what is currently required but the fact is that they won't. There are some very fine dogs amongst the rare breeds but they will never be awarded. I agree with your points - Many exhibitors have very nice dogs that have earnt 200, 300, 400+ points but will never get 4 groups or 25pt CC. Returning to the old system would give these people something to aim for. Edited October 31, 2011 by Toto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waggy Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Many years ago when we titled a dog, we would leave that dog at home to show the next generation that we had kept for showing. No good entering a titled dog and keep flogging the dog out till they were sick of it or that it kept beating our younger dogs just on maturity. When there was a large show like the Australia Day shows used to be with 2000+ dogs and the Melb Royal, we would then bring the older dogs out. It wasn't just us that did that, others in the same breed did the same. Yes there are influences like petrol costs and people now getting their children involved in other things other. But its also not a family outing much anymore. Years ago you would see many families with 2-3 children turn up and they would all be involved in grooming the dogs and showing. Now its more singles, and couples, both straight and gay involved in showing dogs. Now with the grand champion title here, many are keeping on showing their older dogs, as well as young ones who may be already titled and will keep on showing in the knowledge they will have a good chance on showing till they get their grand (i included in that). Other exhibitors with dogs who quite well be good enough specimens to get their championship kept getting beaten and beaten, trying to dodge the people that win constantly or even calling their dogs absent when they see another exhibitor turning up to a show because they know they havnt got a chance in hell of winning. Years ago to... breeders kept their pick from a litter to go on with but there would be other puppies in the litter with just as much promise which might not be kept because of lack of room rather than quality and these would be found homes that people would show these puppies, hence bringing new people to the dog world. Now breeders are so worried of guarding their lines or worried about being beaten by a dog which they may of bred. They don't see a dog being shown they have bred and win and think to themselves 'i bred that dog and im proud of it' its more of 'i bred that dog and i cant believe i sold it to someone who is now beating me with it' Peoples attitudes have changed, its all about winning and not about the good for the betterment of the breed. I agree !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I like what you're saying Poodlefan. I doubt it will attract popular support. We could also add "must be certified clear of all inheritable conditions that can be tested for". That would rule out a few current GR CHs. The idea that the conformation ring is the be all and end all of selecting breeding dogs is a nonsense IMO. If we're going to have bigger and better titles then they should have some kind of additional requirement. Be nice to see dogs that still perform a function being required to have a title at the other end of their names too. There are a few appitude/instinct tests at least that could be used. What would be the criteria for a Cav KCS? Must excel as a comforter dog and be digent at lap sitting. Two of my three would be "Supremes" already One prefers her own space more but would qualify as a "Grand Ch cuddler". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I agree with your points - Many exhibitors have very nice dogs that have earnt 200, 300, 400+ points but will never get 4 groups or 25pt CC. Returning to the old system would give these people something to aim for. Yes - but if a dog can't beat another dog at all, either in specialty shows or at group level and gets it's "grand" title by not beating anything.... how is this dog worthy of the "grand champion" title which suggests they should have beaten "champions" to earn that title. Without a 25pt qualifier, it is possible for a dog to win the Grand title without beating a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I agree with your points - Many exhibitors have very nice dogs that have earnt 200, 300, 400+ points but will never get 4 groups or 25pt CC. Returning to the old system would give these people something to aim for. Yes - but if a dog can't beat another dog at all, either in specialty shows or at group level and gets it's "grand" title by not beating anything.... how is this dog worthy of the "grand champion" title which suggests they should have beaten "champions" to earn that title. Without a 25pt qualifier, it is possible for a dog to win the Grand title without beating a thing. That dog would need to be awarded 167 times, which would mean it would have to be the solo dog of the breed at a show that many times and have the judge not refuse to award challenge... Of anyone wants it that badly they are welcomed to it IMO. At least some smaller clubs will have picked up entries... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 A Grand Champion should be not just a good example of the breed, it should be that rare and special dog that is a living, breathing, text book example of it's breed standard. And it should beat LOTS of dogs to get a Grand Champion title, not just a few dogs lots of times. It shouldn't be just an accumulation of points, there should be some big wins along the way, whether at breed, group of show level. If a dog can't get the points at breed level due to lack of numbers in the breed, and can't get them at group level because it can't win best in group, maybe it's just not of the rare quality required to be awarded the title of Grand Champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceilidh Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 A Grand Champion should be not just a good example of the breed, it should be that rare and special dog that is a living, breathing, text book example of it's breed standard. And it should beat LOTS of dogs to get a Grand Champion title, not just a few dogs lots of times. It shouldn't be just an accumulation of points, there should be some big wins along the way, whether at breed, group of show level. If a dog can't get the points at breed level due to lack of numbers in the breed, and can't get them at group level because it can't win best in group, maybe it's just not of the rare quality required to be awarded the title of Grand Champion. ABSOLUTELY!! Now we are back to the title of Grand not meaning anything other than just getting those thousand points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Awesome! The return of petrol Grand Champions.... Yep... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Awesome! The return of petrol Grand Champions.... Yep... but does it really matter? does it affect you and your dogs? is it that bad that someone keeps giving clubs entries and spending money? you don't have to use the animal in your breeding program if you don't want to or buy a pup with said petrol champion in it's pedigree. If the dog is not worthy then it comes back to the judges to have the gumption to non award, but not worthy in who's eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Awesome! The return of petrol Grand Champions.... Yep... but does it really matter? does it affect you and your dogs? is it that bad that someone keeps giving clubs entries and spending money? you don't have to use the animal in your breeding program if you don't want to or buy a pup with said petrol champion in it's pedigree. If the dog is not worthy then it comes back to the judges to have the gumption to non award, but not worthy in who's eyes? The title of "Grand Champion" should mean something, it should be held by those dogs who are good enough to win groups and in shows, not by those who have owners that will travel for the 6 points at a time. I don't buy the "rare breed " and numerically small arguement, if your dog is good enough, it will win groups and qualify, if the best it can do is a small challenge, then I'm sorry it doesn't deserve the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellcara Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 A Grand Champion should be not just a good example of the breed, it should be that rare and special dog that is a living, breathing, text book example of it's breed standard. yes it "should" be ..... sadly that's not always the case - I know many Grand Ch's who are "generic" showdogs ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Megz- Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 The word "Grand" says it all to me. What is Grand about attending 167 shows and gaining 1,000 points. In a competitive world there should be more than that to strive for. The Supreme Champion, just seems to be the old, new, old well whatever... Grand Champion award that was the harder to obtain one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 what is grand about sending your dog to tiny little shows and getting a BIG over a handful of other dogs, what is grand about a dog getting BIG cause of who is on the other end of the lead? It's all very subjective and not every one will agree on whether a dog with the grand title actually deserves it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 what is grand about sending your dog to tiny little shows and getting a BIG over a handful of other dogs, what is grand about a dog getting BIG cause of who is on the other end of the lead? It's all very subjective and not every one will agree on whether a dog with the grand title actually deserves it. what ? those little shows held on week days, where all the Judges rock up ? I also don't buy the line of it's the handler not the dog. If a dog is good enough it will win groups, full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 what is grand about sending your dog to tiny little shows and getting a BIG over a handful of other dogs, what is grand about a dog getting BIG cause of who is on the other end of the lead? It's all very subjective and not every one will agree on whether a dog with the grand title actually deserves it. what ? those little shows held on week days, where all the Judges rock up ? I also don't buy the line of it's the handler not the dog. If a dog is good enough it will win groups, full stop. I agree if a dog is good enough it will win groups but I also think that some dogs do win because of who is on the end of the lead. so there is more then one way to be a petrol champion imo, it's not just the people who title their dogs on 6 point challenges. It's a pity the system couldn't work and produce worthy dogs the way it should that GayleK put so well in her post, I just object to people thinking the only "bad' Grand Champion is the ones that got there on 6 point challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiesrule Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 what is grand about sending your dog to tiny little shows and getting a BIG over a handful of other dogs, what is grand about a dog getting BIG cause of who is on the other end of the lead? It's all very subjective and not every one will agree on whether a dog with the grand title actually deserves it. what ? those little shows held on week days, where all the Judges rock up ? I also don't buy the line of it's the handler not the dog. If a dog is good enough it will win groups, full stop. I agree if a dog is good enough it will win groups but I also think that some dogs do win because of who is on the end of the lead. so there is more then one way to be a petrol champion imo, it's not just the people who title their dogs on 6 point challenges. It's a pity the system couldn't work and produce worthy dogs the way it should that GayleK put so well in her post, I just object to people thinking the only "bad' Grand Champion is the ones that got there on 6 point challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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