jossfarmer Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Hi Guys, Just wondering if you could please give me some adivce or if you have been through this before? BACKGROUND: Diesel is my Blue Heeler, is is just over a year old. He was castrated quite early to help curb agression (about 4-5mths old?- not that he had shown any at all- just in case. While he was a pup we went to the dog park several times a week to socialise. At the time I was working at a pet store and he came in with every day. So he saw heaps of people and other dogs. So... very well socialised as a pup. There was one dog (a golden retriever) that he never got along with well. It was my best mates dog. They all ways used to fight and bicker but nothing ever came from it they would just settle. The bickering got a bit worse as they got older but most times they would come good and be fine together. It seemed to be when the humans were around that it happened. ANYWAYS. We were baby sitting Noah (the golden) for 2 weeks. Everything was fine. I actually thought that they were becoming friends - laying on the grass together and stuff. Towards the end of his stay one night Myself and the two dogs were in the lounge room. Noah was sitting near me and Diesel was around to. All of a sudden something pissed off Diesel and he started a fight with Noah. At first I wasnt worried but then it got serious. There was serious contact between the two. So (stupid me) jumped in between them to seperate them, but that didnt stop them. As I held each collar they were still fighting so I chucked Diesel in my bedroom. Finally... Peace. During this I got bitten twice- indirectly however (if either of them went me directly they would be put down pronto). Diesel went to my mums until Noahs parents came home. This is the only dog he has ever been agressive with. They have not seen each other since (a couple of months). Diesel hasnt been around many dogs lately (past few months) as we dont live near a dog park anymore and I no longer work at the shop. (He got bitten by a Rottie when he was very young and didnt seem scared by that event at all. Even played with other rotties at the park later that week). Today we were at the vet getting his 1yr shot. He met a tiny toy poodle and was so gentle and wanted to play. In came a rottie/staffy thing. They "met" for a second then Diesel had a go at the other dog. He was on a lead so im not sure exactly what Diesel wanted to do/or would have done. He groweled and snapped at the other dog. This is the first time he has shown agression to any other dog. PROBLEM: Im worried that he is showing agression. I dont find it acceptable. Any ideas on what I should do? Has anyone else had a blue heeler with this sort of problem. I do think that he is overly protective over me. I think this is a problem too. He is an excellent guard dog (im not impressed by thie either) but had never show agression to a human when they come inside. HELP??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Hi. It doesn't really matter that he's an Australian Cattle Dog... all that matters is that this aggression causes problems. You do need to call in a professional. they will assess your dog and the problem... then advise you /work with you/teach you. This is not something that can be fixed in your backyard - well done for asking advice QLD folks will give you the best reccomendations ..tried & true professionals - the only one I've heard of that I remember is Jane Harper . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Hi jossfarmer Do you know if the Staffy x was entire? My boy (also Diesel ) is as sweet as they come with 99% of dogs, but the only 2 he's ever snarled at were adult entire males. If there is a common factor in the dogs he dislikes (and you can work out what it is) it may just be a matter of keeping Diesel away from certain dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 If there is a common factor in the dogs he dislikes (and you can work out what it is) it may just be a matter of keeping Diesel away from certain dogs. sounds good, but how do you manage that calmly and safely when a dog suddenly appears in a vet waiting room, or while on a walk along the footpath ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) I had aggression problems with my first ACD. Very similar to your story. He was heavily socialized, lived with some staffie's, we went to an obedience club. I thought i was doing everything right. He was attacked by two dogs when he was only young, and it made him have the attitude 'get them before they get me'. Not dogs who didnt threaten him, so small dogs he was fine with, but large dogs.....painful. Definately get some help from someone recommended on here. I hear Jane Harper is excellent (and she has ACD's too). Edit: I just want to add that ACD's have been bred to be decision makers, but he needs to learn to look to you for direction. Even if he thinks another dog is suspect he has to have enough respect/ trust in you to let you make the call. You also have a breed that people don't 'cut some slack' with, so it's even more incentive to make him as cool, calm and collected as possible when in public. Call Jane and she can show you how to untap all his potential too, make him a SuperDog Edited November 17, 2011 by Inevitablue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I think there's lots of good advice here and if you are worried get a professional to help. If there is a common factor in the dogs he dislikes (and you can work out what it is) it may just be a matter of keeping Diesel away from certain dogs. sounds good, but how do you manage that calmly and safely when a dog suddenly appears in a vet waiting room, or while on a walk along the footpath ? Kenzie is reactive (I wouldn't say she's aggressive), and she has come leaps and bounds and will tolerate most dogs being in a relatively close vicinity. In the above situation if I saw a breed that I knew she would probably be reactive towards I would turn and walk the opposite way on the street (or cross the road if I could) - if that wasn't possible I just got past them as quickly as possible on a short lead so as to minimise issues as much as possible. At the vet I have been known to duck behind the reception counter if a dog comes in and I can see her starting to show interest - but I have a great relationship with my vet staff and they know that I'm worried about training etc so they expect things like that from me!!! It at least gives you a barrier to try and calm your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 sounds good, but how do you manage that calmly and safely when a dog suddenly appears in a vet waiting room, or while on a walk along the footpath ? For me, I watch their body language very closely when they meet a new dog and have a strong 'walk on' command. At the first sign of tensing, we move away. Like I said this has only happened twice with my boy, but my girl dislikes most dogs (just growls if they get up in her face) so I am very used to the procedure. It depends on the distance at which the OP's dog wants to lunge though - Weez will only get riled if the dog is right in front of him, get about 2m away and he's fine. Our vet waiting room is divided by a row of seats, if I moved around the other side there wouldn't be a problem. YMMV of course I just want to add that ACD's have been bred to be decision makers, but he needs to learn to look to you for direction. Even if he thinks another dog is suspect he has to have enough respect/ trust in you to let you make the call. Couldn't agree more. I am very mindful that kelpies too are bred to make snap decisions independently and set my level of vigilance and training priorities with this in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 smiling at the 'waiting room waltz' idea . yes, it all takes good management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Pers ya gotta do what you gotta do - personally I figure it's better than insisting that I check whether every dog has testicles or not before I let my boy approach PME I just want to say I think it's fantastic how dedicated you are to Kenzie, I suspect with a less patient and understanding owner she would be floundering but it sounds like she is doing great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I figure it's better than insisting that I check whether every dog has testicles or not before I let my boy approach What, you think using binoculars as you are walking along would look odd? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 The biggest lesson I learnt from my first boy was don't waste the best years of your dogs life trying to manage and avoid situations. I had to stop doing agility training at my club because I couldn't control my dog. By the time I worked out how to change his attitude he was getting past his physical prime. Spend some time and money on having someone show you how to change his behaviour, you will learn so much and your dog will be more at peace too. It will be some of the best money you've ever spent. Just do some research and find credible help. He doesn't sound like a lost cause at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I've spoken about this with a lot of my dog behaviour professional friends, and it seems that herding dogs in particular seem to like the world to run a certain way. They appear to be fine with whatever is going on, then the arousal will tip beyond a certain point, then they use a bit of aggression to get everything back under control (often without doing any actual damage, but it depends a lot on how the other dog responds). Find yourself a competent professional (if you mention your area, recommendations will be given here) who will help you recognise and manage these situations. Once you're good at this, you can begin behaviour modification. What you try to achieve with this is to help him feel like things are under control and that you will take care of things for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 PME I just want to say I think it's fantastic how dedicated you are to Kenzie, I suspect with a less patient and understanding owner she would be floundering but it sounds like she is doing great Thankyou!!!! :D :D :D I think we are coming along leaps and bounds and I'm so proud of how she is doing!!!! She is actually quite delightful to be around most of the time now and she is gaining so much confidence. I guess also knowing that others have the same problems (and some much worse) and can deal with them helps me. But yes is does take patience and understanding! I dread to think what happens to dogs with these issues when people aren't prepared to ask and get help and help their dogs learn to manage. I guess that's part of the reason why there are some dogs that never leave back yards or they end up in shelters. I'm still of the belief you get the dog you need - she's certainly taught me lots and lots about the world of dogs and I love every bit of her for helping me in that way!!!! To the OP - triggers are really important to recognise (we just avoid them still! Getting closer but I always keep Kenz below the threshold where she will react, still push the boundary a tiny bit at a time) and having a planned management strategy. I think the best thing I've done for Kenzie is that I've learnt how to be calm myself even if she does react - that's when we just walk away and do a few quick things (sit, hi-5, shake, wave, drop, etc) to regain focus and calm down. No point making a song and dance as that just exacerbates the situation. But find someone who can help you with your dogs specific needs, every dog needs it's own strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) Also might be a good idea to look at the dogs he reacts to - say for eg the Rotty/staffy at the vet. Look at their posture and body language. Was it quite upright and forward (even if they just wanted to greet)? I have found that mine are more likely to react to a dog with forward body language that could be interpreted as rude/challenging/dominant. Edited November 18, 2011 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Pers - I don't think I've got enough hands to carry binoculars on the walk too! it seems that herding dogs in particular seem to like the world to run a certain way. They appear to be fine with whatever is going on, then the arousal will tip beyond a certain point, then they use a bit of aggression to get everything back under control (often without doing any actual damage, but it depends a lot on how the other dog responds). I think this is a great summary of what goes on, although I didn't have the thought fully formed in my head until you said it. Them herding dogs can be a bit 'special' ;) Also might be a good idea to look at the dogs he reacts to - say for eg the Rotty/staffy at the vet. Look at their posture and body language. Was it quite upright and forward (even if they just wanted to greet)? I have found that mine are more likely to react to a dog with forward body language that could be interpreted as rude/challenging/dominant. I think this is a good point too. A few (not all) of the staffys & staffy x's I've met hold themselves very upright and try to get some part of them (paws or chin) hooked over the shoulders of my dogs very early in the meeting - It's pretty rude, and started a fight once with my girl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Also, it's useful to get experienced people to have a look at what is happening to see what the intentions are. My girl has decided at 2 years of age that she does not like rudeness AT ALL. If a dog lunges at her, puts their head over her back, comes at her paws flailing, barks at her etc. she will growl and if they persist, snap. In no way, shape or form would I call her aggressive. She greets well mannered dogs very nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jossfarmer Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 Weasels: "Do you know if the Staffy x was entire? My boy (also Diesel ) is as sweet as they come with 99% of dogs, but the only 2 he's ever snarled at were adult entire males. If there is a common factor in the dogs he dislikes (and you can work out what it is) it may just be a matter of keeping Diesel away from certain dogs. " - No I dont know the dog or if he was entire. No common thing with the dogs, as I said there has only ever been the Golden Ret and the Staffy, He regularly plays with another staffy. Inevitablue: Thanks! Sounds like we are in the same situation. "He doesn't sound like a lost cause at all." THANKS! Pretty Miss Emma: "To the OP - triggers are really important to recognise (we just avoid them still." - We shouldnt have to avoid situations at all. He should be behaved. Kavik: "I have found that mine are more likely to react to a dog with forward body language that could be interpreted as rude/challenging/dominant." Yes I do believe this could be the case. Is it possible for a dog to misread other dogs body language?. THANKS FOR ALL YOUR REPLYS SO FAR I Live in Victoria, Pakenham. Any recommendations for a professional would be great :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Pretty Miss Emma: "To the OP - triggers are really important to recognise (we just avoid them still." - We shouldnt have to avoid situations at all. He should be behaved. He is behaving in a way that he perceives as beneficial to him - either by getting the dog to back off or by releasing stress. Dogs aren't born understanding the rules of human society, they have to be taught And they are unlikely to take lessons in when they are in a highly arouosed state, so I believe Pretty Miss Emma is saying (if I may speak for her) is not to let your dog practice an unwanted behaviour during the training process, and gradually work on increasing the dog's threshold to reacting. Kavik: "I have found that mine are more likely to react to a dog with forward body language that could be interpreted as rude/challenging/dominant." Yes I do believe this could be the case. Is it possible for a dog to misread other dogs body language?. Absolutely. I'm sure someone will have a recommmendation for a great Vic behaviourist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jossfarmer Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 Weasels: Yes you have put that perfectly! Thats exactly what I think. I was refering to the fact that I dont want to use avoidance as the answer to our problems. It needs to be fixed (I understand that this will need training and that it doesnt come natually). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 jossfarmer- DOL members erny cosmolo nekhbet and ,I think, kelpie-i are professionals in & around melbourne.... maybe you could send them a private message and see how you go ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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