poochiemama Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Just recently read Control Unleashed, an interesting read although mainly agility-focused. I want to do the Look at That game with my goldie, who is a little anxious around other dogs - she will start staring at them as soon as she sees them, sometimes freezes etc, although there is no aggression and she is becoming more comfortable with some good training from Underdog ... However, if I have a treat for her, she will not look at it or look at me for a treat, because she is too focused on the other dog. This is even when we are miles away from the other dog.... is there another way of breaking her focus from the dog other than treats? Same goes for targetting...although she loves doing it, I try to do it on walks to break her focus from the other dogs, but she can't even look at me or listen to me at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) I would start at home first. When they are really worked up or stressed they won't take treats, so best to build up the default behaviour first at home where there are no distractions. Will she take treats for training at home? Edited November 28, 2011 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podengo Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hmm... Work her below threshold, move further away from the other dogs to a point where she will take treats. Practice LAT with a circle of cardboard on the wall or something similar to build the behaviour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Are you using the clicker as well???? If you are clicking immediately as soon as she looks & she doesn't immediately turn to you for the treat, then you are way over her threshhold & you need to go right back to where she will respond to the clicker. You have to get your timing right & make sure she really understands the value of the clicker. I have never met a goldie yet that is not interested in food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochiemama Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Some great suggestions.... I haven't been using the clicker, I think I need to rebuild her association with the clicker at home and then take it on the road.... I made the mistake of training my other dog Charlie more, thinking he's 'smarter'...so he knows the value of treats, the clicker etc but she just lies there and gets treats everytime Charlie gets a treat ... I don't think she's learnt the concept of working for a treat. So does LAT really work? I'm curious as to how to use generalise looking at a target on the wall/cardboard etc to the situation with other dogs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Yes, LAT really works! Threshold is important. With Kenz, if I am in a situation where we just don't have enough space and she starts to stare and "can't hear me" I will give her a light tap between her eyebrows (and I literally mean a tap that is just enough that I touch her head and it's with 1 finger) and that often just breaks that moment for her - mind you all this is well before she is showing any sign other than staring. When I do this it just seems to reset her focus again and she can "hear me" again, then we can start playing the LAT game. I've found that doing this really seems to calm her, before I figured this out (and I have no idea how I did!) she would continue the staring and then react, whereas now it's almost as if she goes "oh I forgot you were there, let's keep playing that game again". It works for us at the moment anyway!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 From my own experience with my "Tasmanian Devil" type border collie...believe me....done properly & with a clicker it does work. But you have to take it in little steps & she has to love the clicker. If you've done any trick training & shaping with the clicker, beforehand, that makes a big difference. Eventually, it just becomes another one of her tricks that she can perform for you & be rewarded for it....ie...looking at whatever & looking straight back to you to tell you about it. What you are doing is telling your dog, "hey, it's OK to be a dog & look at that thing, but tell me about it too"...have fun...I love it & so does my crazy BC. Six months ago, I would have had trouble keeping her in the ring if another dog was running next door, but now I can run a course without even speaking to her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochiemama Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Yay! i'm excited to try this ... it seems so simple and i guess i need to train it just like a trick . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Absolutely it works- and the more conditioning that is done in other situations where there are no dogs, the more value is built for the game and the more likely that you will be able to reduce the distance between her and the other dogs over time. I would also consider how much free food she is getting- if you want to increase value for food, restrict and reduce at non training times. You don't have to do it with a clicker either- personal preference either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I agree with the others. "Miles away" is still too close at the moment for your GR. And LAT really does work. Three cats on the way home from the park tonight can vouch for that. Frosty used to launch herself at them like I wasn't there, and then do that ugly back flip when she got to the end of the lead. Now she just goes - cat there - and I say yes there is. Sometimes we check if the cat is still alive - two of the three tonight were pretending to be dead - ie lying very flat, chin and all flat on the ground. Eyes open and blinking kind of gives it away tho. They were quite able to nick off way before sniffing zone was reached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochiemama Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 wow, it definitely sounds like a good thing to teach both dogs actually.... it's good to have their attention when you need it, not just when faced with other dogs but any other potentially scary situations. I think it's true about restricting her food...she never seems to be hungry and the treats don't mean much to her as a result. i will start training it from tomorrow, starting at home and then build up to doing it on walks . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 (edited) wow, it definitely sounds like a good thing to teach both dogs actually.... it's good to have their attention when you need it, not just when faced with other dogs but any other potentially scary situations. I think it's true about restricting her food...she never seems to be hungry and the treats don't mean much to her as a result. i will start training it from tomorrow, starting at home and then build up to doing it on walks . What are you using for treats???? When teaching something new it's best to have really yummy, irresistable treats...they dont have to be big...just tiny & delicious ;) Follow this link for some really yummy, homemade treats that my dogs go bananas for Yummy treats Edited November 28, 2011 by sheena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I had a client's dog who would froth at the mouth if she saw a plastic bag blowing across the other end of a sports ground, and offering food was almost pointless. Within a few weeks we had her working with focus around other reactive dogs within 20'. Not that I'm suggesting every dog comes along so quickly or that everyone should be able to do this (I've had plenty of practise!), but to show you that it works. Start with whatever distance/distraction-free environment you need for success. If your dog isn't succeeding, you have nothing to reinforce. Always set your dog up for success; always, always, always. It sounds silly to work with a cardboard dot on the wall at home, but if that's what it takes to get success, then that's where you begin. Personally, I'd be teeing up some more sessions with Underdog as soon as you are able. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochiemama Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Underdog actually went through the Look at That game with us, but we had other priorities in training at the time; but now that they are so beautiful behaved (most of the time) , I thought we'd revisit the LAT game...I might start doing it on both of them and see how we go. Will update with progress...thanks for all your suggestions guys, this forum is so great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Training by Grisha Stuart) does not require food and works extremely well. Seems to work in half the time that both LAT, Auto focus and/or Counter Conditioning does and does away with the need to use food! Edited December 7, 2011 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/bat/ Reading material on BAT poochie- you have probably done some of this sort of work before. Kelpie i- have you used BAT exclusively with success or in combination with LAT/ counter conditioning/ focus etc? I find it difficult to get my head around using BAT in uncontrolled situations in the early stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Cosmolo I am new to BAT and after seeing Grisha and BAT in action at the APDT America conference in October I was converted. Have been using it since with private consults with fantastic results so far...remember I too am also getting the technique right so some mistakes are occurring. It works on functional reward like taking the dog away from the trigger and releasing slight pressure. Negative reinforcement and life rewards. The omition of food enables the dog's behaviour to become functional without it. Re the uncontrolled situations..there really is no difference to pushing past threshold boundaries using to BAT and pushing past threshold boundaries using CC or any other technique. Either way the owner has pushed the dog too far causing reaction so they merely reset and start again. Will post more info on my findings later tonight as I am off to a client now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 are there any relevant DVD's that you know of demonstrating the technique Kelpie? Interested in knowing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 are there any relevant DVD's that you know of demonstrating the technique Kelpie? Interested in knowing more. Yes she has quite a few DVD's that she sells through Tawzer Dog, I've got a 3 set DVD called BAT, Behavioural Adustment Training for Aggresion and Fear and a heap of notes from the conference. I think she's written a book as well. She has Patricia McConnell attend her seminars....that's gotta say something! We have generally used CC, backaways, auto focus and LAT to assist those with reactive dogs, and still do.... but this BAT concept makes perfect sense and it works quite quickly too, especially with those dogs that stop taking food when their stress levels peak. Let me know what you think once you've had a chance to watch, read and try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Thanks for that- will get hold of the dvds i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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