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Dr Bruce Syme

Vets All Natural - Perfect Puppy Nutrition

395 posts in this topic

anniek   

Nothing else is added, its just that it is pasteurised - therefore not entirely raw.

thanks - just that I don't feed any type of grains

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minimax   

Nothing else is added, its just that it is pasteurised - therefore not entirely raw.

thanks - just that I don't feed any type of grains

Aren't VAN products packed full of oats etc? Or not the rolls?

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JulesP   

Got the roll today. Not as stinky as the Raw complete stuff. Isn't as icky either. I'm a vego and have struggled a bit feeding the Raw pack stuff, delicate little thing that I am. Dog ate it but she does pretty much eat anything.

My main feedback would be price point. For your average supermarket shopper (as in not nutty dog person) it is pretty expensive at $5+. The 4Leggs roll was $2+ at the same size. So I think you will struggle selling it in supermarkets.

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Guest lavendergirl   
Guest lavendergirl

Maybe the same people who usually shop for their dog food in the pet stores will now just pick it up from the supermarket instead? I don't know we haven't seen it up here in Qld yet :)

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Nekhbet   

Clash most minces you will purchase will be reasonably similar in fat/protein content due to the parts of the animals put through the mincer. Dr Syme recommends kangaroo mince as it is leaner, of course if you serve your dogs mince with massive globules of fat through it (eg sausage mince or home minced parts) the fat content will go up.

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clash   

Clash most minces you will purchase will be reasonably similar in fat/protein content due to the parts of the animals put through the mincer. Dr Syme recommends kangaroo mince as it is leaner, of course if you serve your dogs mince with massive globules of fat through it (eg sausage mince or home minced parts) the fat content will go up.

Actually, I have looked at my pack instead of the online PDF and it has the qualification that it was calculated using lean kangaroo mince! All is good.

So it's only that online document that isn't clear.

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I'm feeding my Black Russian Terrier puppy complete mix mixed with meats - he loves it - first thing he's really enjoyed eating.

I'm wondering about its suitability for large breed puppies and its calcium levels in general.

This site:

http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/CMsheet.pdf

Indicates that a 22kg puppy gets 250g of complete mix per day, mixed with meat.

This has 2400mg/kg of Calcium, for a total daily calcium intake (apart from the trace amounts in meat) of 600mg.

However, the recommended intake of calcium for a large breed puppy is 210mg per kg per day. (Solid references listed here: http://skeptvet.com/Blog/2010/01/nutrition-in-large-breed-puppies/ )

2400mg/kg is 0.24g/100g, so Vets All Natural is = 0.24% Calcium, which will get lower when mixed up with meat. That's a very low calcium diet.

Hi Clash,

Here is Bruce's reply

All seems a bit confusing – the levels on the CM pack are “as fed when soaked and mixed with red meat”, and they are also indicated at the moisture level of the food as fed. If you take out the moisture component, and look at Dry Matter basis, which is the standard way of comparing foods and the levels that are used by AAFCO etc, you will find that CM (as fed) has adequate calcium levels. It is the same as feeding raw 76 in any case (which is just mix and meat ready-made).

AAFCO have a max level of calcium for pups of 10g/kg DM (dry matter), or 1%.

VAN CM with red meat has 2.4g/kg as fed at 67% moisture, which is actually 2.4 x 2.7 = 6.5g/kg, or 0.65%

I have used this formula and calcium level for 18 years, and we have sponsored many large breed clubs (eg mastiff, malamute societies) with great success. I have no doubt the levels are prefect for a large /giant breed puppy.

Warm regards,

Dr Bruce Syme BVSc(Hons)

Here is some more information-

Puppy diets for Large and Small breed dogs

Do large breed puppies really need a specialised diet, or is this simply “marketing gone mad” ? This a common question asked of many vets, myself included, and there are many differing opinions. If you ask a vet who supplies premium dry foods, then his answer is most likely to be yes, and the information and reasoning behind this will have come straight from the pet food company he supports. If you ask me, then I will happily say no, as I have been actively involved in advising and assisting large breed dog owners and breeders for over 15 years on how to feed puppies, and I have never seen the need for a specific “large breed” puppy diet.

The simple fact is that the primary difference between small and large breed dogs is how long they are in active growth for, and what is the growth factor (size difference from birth to mature weight). If you have a “perfectly formulated and balanced” puppy diet, then the only difference between feeding a toy poodle puppy and a great dane puppy will be how much you feed per day (including how often), and for how long do you continue to feed the puppy formula. A small breed puppy will reach mature weight much faster than a large breed, and as such, they may only need a puppy formula for 6 months, whereas large or giant breed puppies may take 18 months or up to 2 years to reach full mature size. A small breed (eg toy poodle) may have a birth weight of 100-150g, and a mature weight of 3-5 kg, which we can call a growth factor of approx. 20, but in comparison a greatdane puppy born at 600g will grow to 60+ kg, which is a growth factor of 100+.

The smaller breed puppies will grow very quickly, and as such, you can feed them more per meal (based on bodyweight) and keep a higher frequency of feeding (eg 2-3 meals per day). With a slower maturing large breed puppy, it is important not to over feed them or let them get fat. They need a lot less per meal (relative to bodyweight), and certainly only 2 meals per day. A small breed puppy can consume up to twice the calories (per kg bodyweight) than a large/giant breed puppy requires. So for a large or giant breed puppy, the goal is for slow and steady growth, keeping bodyweight on the leaner side until full maturity is reached.

A good balance of nutrients is important in a puppy diet – higher in protein to match growth rate, balanced calcium levels for skeletal development, adequate carbohydrate for fuel, low in fat but high in Omega 3 for brain development. A good ratio for fresh meat diets is 70% meat to 30% carb and vegetable matter, with a properly balanced vitamin/mineral/trace element additive.

Calcium levels do get a good deal of discussion, and there is plenty of evidence to show that a diet lacking in adequate levels of available calcium will cause growth defects. However, much of the information that relates to supplying too much calcium also causing growth problems, has been based on some very flawed feeding trials dating back to the 1980’s. As a general rule, there should be no need to add extra calcium to any correctly prepared, complete and balanced pet food.

So the only difference in puppy feeding (assuming you are using a correctly formulated puppy diet) is how much you feed, and for how long you keep using the puppy diet.

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Nothing else is added, its just that it is pasteurised - therefore not entirely raw.

thanks - just that I don't feed any type of grains

Aren't VAN products packed full of oats etc? Or not the rolls?

Yes, there are grains in the rolls. When anniek asked what else was in it because it's not 100% raw I assumed she was asking what else was in it to not make it raw. Apart from the rolls, everything in our diets are raw - including the vegetables and grains. Processing grains - like protein alters the composition.

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Hi Lavendergirl,

We have released a roll into Woolworths and other supermarkets just in Victoria (for the immediate future) only 2 varieties available, adult dog and cat. The functional rolls (joint health, sensitive skin etc) should be out in about 4 more weeks in selected pet stores and vets. The delay is very frustrating for us so we appreciate how frustrated those looking forward to them must be.

Any chance that these will be available in SA?

The HealthRolls are being shipped out this week to wholesalers across Australia. They should start appearing in Petbarn's & Petstock's soon. Different to the Woolworths Rolls as they have more variety and are larger.

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Got the roll today. Not as stinky as the Raw complete stuff. Isn't as icky either. I'm a vego and have struggled a bit feeding the Raw pack stuff, delicate little thing that I am. Dog ate it but she does pretty much eat anything.

My main feedback would be price point. For your average supermarket shopper (as in not nutty dog person) it is pretty expensive at $5+. The 4Leggs roll was $2+ at the same size. So I think you will struggle selling it in supermarkets.

Good to hear it isn't as icky - that was one of the main issues Bruce wanted to address with the Raw76, giving people another option.

Unfortunately the rolls are pricier than what consumers are used to with a roll. There is no gelatin or fillers of any kind. A test we have suggested to people to check the quality of a roll is to pop a slice in the microwave for a few minutes. If it's packed full of gelatin and expanders these will melt and become a gluggy messy. Try the same with a VAN roll and it will just cook.

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clash   

Thanks for that large breed advice. I'm really happy with this food and we're going to stick with it for a while.

The feeding chart runs out at 30kg puppies, where do I go from there...

Do I double the smaller figures for larger puppies like this:

32-40kg: 400g mix, 400 ml water, 1200g meat

42-50kg: 500g mix, 500 ml water, 1500g meat

52-60kg: 550g mix, 550 ml water, 1700g meat

Is that right?

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Nekhbet   
The HealthRolls are being shipped out this week to wholesalers across Australia. They should start appearing in Petbarn's & Petstock's soon. Different to the Woolworths Rolls as they have more variety and are larger.

Yes. Thankyou. Purchase order has been created lol I spent ages today reshuffling the fridge at work so there's loads of space for it :D

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I've just loaded the fridge with the rolls and have to say they look brilliant! Very exciting to have VAN in this format, that really does seem to suit a lot of people.

Good range as well.

post-2308-0-99788600-1347063480_thumb.jpg

post-2308-0-47605300-1347063521_thumb.jpg

Edited by Sagittarian

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Guest lavendergirl   
Guest lavendergirl

Are these rolls meant to be a complete diet - anyone know?

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anniek   

does anyone know how much the rolls are ??

saw them this afternoon in the supermarket - $5.99 and very tiny!

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does anyone know how much the rolls are ??

Cat/Kitten 600gm $5.95

Puppy 1kg $7.60

Adult 1.2kg $7.60

Joint Health 1.2kg $9.80

Weight Loss 1.2kg $9.80

Sensitive Skin 1.2kg $10.95

That's the pricing that VAN gave us, so it may vary between retailers.

I am rather impressed with the range, particularly the Sensitive Skin and Joint Health (the latter contains shark cartilage and green lipped mussel). Will be really interesting to get feedback from those using it.

Sags

:)

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clash   

Thanks for that large breed advice. I'm really happy with this food and we're going to stick with it for a while.

The feeding chart runs out at 30kg puppies, where do I go from there...

Do I double the smaller figures for larger puppies like this:

32-40kg: 400g mix, 400 ml water, 1200g meat

42-50kg: 500g mix, 500 ml water, 1500g meat

52-60kg: 550g mix, 550 ml water, 1700g meat

Is that right?

I hope someone from VAN can respond, as puppy will hit 30kg in two weeks...

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