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Dr Bruce Syme

Vets All Natural - Perfect Puppy Nutrition

395 posts in this topic

sas   

The cereal mix is a combination of 5 parts rolled oats, 2 parts cracked barley, and one part each of soybean meal, linseed meal and whole grain oats (although only add the whole oats when the pups are about 8-10 weeks old).

This would be in part why Mandela can only handle a meal of VAN here and there .... I used the Dr Jean Dodds & Nutriscan Food Intolerance Saliva test and one of the ingredients he has proven to be intolerant to is soy.

OT, can you link me to the thread where you spoke about these results?

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Erny   

The cereal mix is a combination of 5 parts rolled oats, 2 parts cracked barley, and one part each of soybean meal, linseed meal and whole grain oats (although only add the whole oats when the pups are about 8-10 weeks old).

This would be in part why Mandela can only handle a meal of VAN here and there .... I used the Dr Jean Dodds & Nutriscan Food Intolerance Saliva test and one of the ingredients he has proven to be intolerant to is soy.

OT, can you link me to the thread where you spoke about these results?

I don't know that I did, specifically, MEH. I'm sure I mentioned them in passing, as I've done here, but not so sure I spoke of them in detail or in a specific context.

Why? And what results do you want to know, in particular? Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding what it is you really want to know ???

Oh - and OT, but I'd really like to know about the bad experience you've had with the use of Coconut Oil. That has me very interested. Feel free to PM me or to return to the other thread where that was discussed and asked, but I do genuinely wish to understand what negative/s you experienced.

Edited by Erny

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sheena   

The cereal mix is a combination of 5 parts rolled oats, 2 parts cracked barley, and one part each of soybean meal, linseed meal and whole grain oats (although only add the whole oats when the pups are about 8-10 weeks old).

This would be in part why Mandela can only handle a meal of VAN here and there .... I used the Dr Jean Dodds & Nutriscan Food Intolerance Saliva test and one of the ingredients he has proven to be intolerant to is soy.

OT, can you link me to the thread where you spoke about these results?

I don't know that I did, specifically, MEH. I'm sure I mentioned them in passing, as I've done here, but not so sure I spoke of them in detail or in a specific context.

Why? And what results do you want to know, in particular? Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding what it is you really want to know ???

Oh - and OT, but I'd really like to know about the bad experience you've had with the use of Coconut Oil. That has me very interested. Feel free to PM me or to return to the other thread where that was discussed and asked, but I do genuinely wish to understand what negative/s you experienced.

Erny...I too would like to know what MEH's bad experience with coconut oil has been, especially since she/he said him/herself that one should be very, very, very careful about claims.

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Erny   

Bruce has always said there are dogs with genuine allergies, and the saliva test could be incredibly beneficial in identifying those. Bruce does believe that too many dogs are diagnosed with carb intolerance, when in actual fact it is the processed carb's that are causing unnatural immune system responses.

Thanks - I'd like to follow up this comment with you directly - would you mind if I did? It is not to challenge you, but to make sure I have understood something correctly.

For Mandela, you could make up a meal with meat, the above recipe without the soybean and then add the VAN Health Booster. The Health Booster is the vitamin and mineral supplement that is used as a base in the Complete Mix. Each variety then has applicable ingredients. Senior has chondriotin and glucosamine, Sensitive Skin has our Skin & Coat Formula etc.

And thanks again. Just need to collect the ingredients :).

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sas   

I don't know that I did, specifically, MEH. I'm sure I mentioned them in passing, as I've done here, but not so sure I spoke of them in detail or in a specific context.

Why? And what results do you want to know, in particular? Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding what it is you really want to know ???

Oh - and OT, but I'd really like to know about the bad experience you've had with the use of Coconut Oil. That has me very interested. Feel free to PM me or to return to the other thread where that was discussed and asked, but I do genuinely wish to understand what negative/s you experienced.

Wondering how you went with it, i.e. given the results you were you able to make the neccessary changes and see improvements?

Didn't say I had bad experience with Coconut oil, said I have had experience with coconut oil :)

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Erny   

Wondering how you went with it, i.e. given the results you were you able to make the neccessary changes and see improvements?

Aahh ... ok, I getcha :). It has sort of helped, to a degree only, at this stage. The thing is, the test is only new and consequently not all proteins/food types were tested for. My boy still has problems with foods - goes on them, off them, has good stools with some, bad with others. The Nutriscan test has clarified some things for me to an extent at least. For example, how come Mandela went gung ho on the Z/D for a good period of time, then suddenly (literally) went off it? I didn't understand that until I recognised that Z/D contains corn starch and soy, both of which Mandela has shown positive to in the food intolerance tests.

So, I avoid where I can the foods he is proven intolerant to. The next lot of testing (new tests should be available about May this year, I think) will clarify others food sources for me and I think that will prove to be a bigger help.

Didn't say I had bad experience with Coconut oil, said I have had experience with coconut oil :)

Oh .... sorry. My mistake, perhaps? In the other thread, the way you wrote it, it was as if there was something you knew that suggested we should be very very careful about the feeding of it to our dogs. I won't encumber this thread with it so I'll re-visit the other :).

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Bruce has always said there are dogs with genuine allergies, and the saliva test could be incredibly beneficial in identifying those. Bruce does believe that too many dogs are diagnosed with carb intolerance, when in actual fact it is the processed carb's that are causing unnatural immune system responses.

Thanks - I'd like to follow up this comment with you directly - would you mind if I did? It is not to challenge you, but to make sure I have understood something correctly.

Erny, by all means. I have spoken to Bruce about your query and he is more than happy to discuss. I will PM you his mobile number and email.

EDIT: Erny, your PM box appears to be full, can you PM please

Edited by Vets All Natural

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sas   

Wondering how you went with it, i.e. given the results you were you able to make the neccessary changes and see improvements?

Aahh ... ok, I getcha :). It has sort of helped, to a degree only, at this stage. The thing is, the test is only new and consequently not all proteins/food types were tested for. My boy still has problems with foods - goes on them, off them, has good stools with some, bad with others. The Nutriscan test has clarified some things for me to an extent at least. For example, how come Mandela went gung ho on the Z/D for a good period of time, then suddenly (literally) went off it? I didn't understand that until I recognised that Z/D contains corn starch and soy, both of which Mandela has shown positive to in the food intolerance tests.

So, I avoid where I can the foods he is proven intolerant to. The next lot of testing (new tests should be available about May this year, I think) will clarify others food sources for me and I think that will prove to be a bigger help.

Didn't say I had bad experience with Coconut oil, said I have had experience with coconut oil :)

Oh .... sorry. My mistake, perhaps? In the other thread, the way you wrote it, it was as if there was something you knew that suggested we should be very very careful about the feeding of it to our dogs. I won't encumber this thread with it so I'll re-visit the other :).

I'm hanging out for the expanded test, hopefully soon huh.

Nope, just that I had tried it. It irkes me when people promote things like they're miracle cures that's all.

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Erny   

I'm hanging out for the expanded test, hopefully soon huh.

Fingers crossed. Nutriscan suggest May.

Nope, just that I had tried it. It irkes me when people promote things like they're miracle cures that's all.

That's fair enough too. I will try anything provided first it (a) makes sense for me to do so and (b) will do my dog no harm for trying. That's why I became a bit paranoid about what you'd said. But for the record, I re-visited that other thread and can see where I slightly mis-read what you wrote. I hope the positive claims regarding the Coconut Oil are true, but I don't bank on them nor hang my hat on any of them until I see it for myself.

Cheers

Erny

And to VAN - my apologies for going OT in your thread.

Edited by Erny

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juice   

I bought a bag of VANS today for my bully to try first.( Sensitive)

I have mixed it up ready, smells yuk, but will see what she thinks :laugh: , my main concern is what meat to use aswell.

Petstock got me to buy their roo all natural roll, as they said it had no preservatives in, does that mean if i buy roo meat it normally has them in?

Its just a bit pricey at $5 for 800grms, if i move all 3 dogs onto it.

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I buy pet roo meat from a supplier at $3:80 a kg. i feed a lamb bone here and there instead of a meal. Doesnt work out too bad and as soon as pup stops eating me out house and home it willbe cheaper.

Question, does roo have enough fat in for a growing pup? I alternate roo and goat at the moment.

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I mix mine with minced chicken carcass from Leonards. It's only $2.50 per kg and it has meat, bone, offal and cartilage in it and it is fresh. I buy about 8kg at a time and put them in the freezer.

I have tried roo meat but my dogs hate it and will only eat out of desperation!

I don't mind the smell of the VAN and my dogs love it, I reckon they would eat it without the mince added! My dogs don't have any skin or allergy issues and have always looked good, but they look amazing on VAN and the Dobe is so shiny you need glasses to look at him in the sunlight :thumbsup:

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Jumabaar   

I bought a bag of VANS today for my bully to try first.( Sensitive)

I have mixed it up ready, smells yuk, but will see what she thinks :laugh: , my main concern is what meat to use aswell.

Petstock got me to buy their roo all natural roll, as they said it had no preservatives in, does that mean if i buy roo meat it normally has them in?

Its just a bit pricey at $5 for 800grms, if i move all 3 dogs onto it.

I pay about $17 for 5kg of roo at a pet shop so it might be possible to source it cheaper. I also use chicken from a cheap chicken shop, but I also keep an eye out in woolies for discounts as their meat is about to go out of date- picked up some good bargains that way :)

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juice   

I gave her a small bit with roo meat, which is yuk to handle, and a couple of necks for brekky, and she scoffed it down! wouldn't leave the bowl.

So i am toying with which meat, will see if i can get a better price on roo meat, what is 'Leonards" ?

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Crisovar   

Chicken product retail franchise. They mince the offcuts and frames after they bone out and prepare products. So what you get is minced carcass, a bit of offal, cartiledge, some meat etc.

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Some information on Kangaroo meat.

Someone also made an interesting and valid point on kangaroo's eating non organic pasture. We will investigate that futher to the theoretical % it could make up.

KANGAROO

This is my preferred choice of meats – kangaroo. Fresh kangaroo meat has been widely used in Australia as pet meat for over 30 years, and more recently, it has made significant in-roads into the pet food industry, with sales of roo meat in supermarkets escalating dramatically over the past 5 years.

Kangaroo meat is widely available in Australia at most pet supply outlets, and in supermarkets. Due to increasing demand, the price of kangaroo has unfortunately increased significantly over the past 2 years, now retailing for $4.00 + per kg. Interestingly, roo meat has never really been used in processed pet foods, most likely due to concerns with negative consumer “perception”.

Nutritionally, kangaroo meat is superior to all the farmed meats. It is low in fat (3 - 4%), high in protein, and high in vitamins and minerals. Because kangaroo is not farmed, the meat is truly free range, and organic. Kangaroos graze a very wide variety of pastures, wild grasses, shrubs and trees, and as a result of this variety, they enjoy excellent health, and their meat has a wide array of macro and micro nutrients.

Kangaroo is a highly suitable meat source, and is a natural prey animal of the wild Australian dogs – the Dingo. Kangaroo is considered a “cooling” meat, as it lives in a very dry and arid environment, and as such, is ideal for treating pets with food allergies. Also, because it has never been widely used in processed pet foods, it is also a very unique source of animal protein, and is very valuable when formulating a diet for pets with food allergies.

Kangaroo is not farmed in Australia, hence the meat itself is considered “wild game” meat, and is, by nature, free range and organic. Kangaroo numbers have escalated in Australia since the 19th Century, with modern farming practices opening up large areas of grazing land.

Culling of kangaroos is vital, both to prevent over-competition with domesticated farm animals (primarily sheep and cattle), but also to prevent massive overpopulation in good seasons, where kangaroo numbers can escalate out of control, which can then lead to massive death tolls in subsequent drought years. Culling of Kangaroos is a very closely controlled, government regulated, business. Every year, aerial surveillance is undertaken to record accurate population numbers, and a cull quota is established for each state, to maintain an appropriate sustainable base population of kangaroos. Kangaroos are shot in the wild by professionally accredited shooters; every shooter is licensed and must purchase government issued ear tags, which are immediately attached to any kangaroo that is harvested. Kangaroos must be killed with a single clean head shot. There is no stressful period of mustering, handling or transport involved at all.

The kangaroos are then transported to a local chilled container, which is then transported to the local processing plant. Every animal is then inspected by a government appointed meat inspector, and then approved for processing. Carcasses to be used for human consumption are processed in separate production areas, and have a second inspection before being cleared for HC. The quality of meat used for HC is no different to that harvested for pet food, and differs only in the processing and inspection stages

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Alyosha   

There have been several exposures of shocking practices in kangaroo harvesting, from excessive cruelty and non-compliance with allowable numbers, to serious concerns with modes of dressing and transport. Videos have been produced of maggot infested carcasses being transported in ill-sealed and poorly refrigerated units, still entering the commercial meat supply.

For some people there are ethical reasons to question the industry. Kangaroo meat also doesn't agree with some types of dogs, being low in fat and high in protein.

edit, typos

Edited by Alyosha

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Yes, unfortunately there are people who don't follow government regulations. They shouldn't continue as auditors and inspectors weed them out. Sadly, the cowboys probably exist.

Getting to know your local supplier is a good idea. Every industry which involves animals should be held to the highest scrutiny.

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