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Dr Bruce Syme

Vets All Natural - Perfect Puppy Nutrition

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juice   

Just a question about meat, can you refreeze it?

My petshop only sells the lamb frozen in 1kg's, and as i have reduced Bonn's portions it is sitting in the fridge for about 5 days, so gets a bit brown. Is it ok, or can i refreeze it ?

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moosepup   

I wouldn't refreeze meat personally but it may be ok:

Frozen food defrosted or thawed in the refrigerator may be refrozen. However, the bacteria in food can multiply even at low temperatures. Refrigerating food will not stop bacterial growth: just slow it. So do not refreeze food that has be defrosted for some time even if it has been refrigerated the whole time.

Freezing meat will cause a loss of quality as the ice crystals break cell walls. Freezing, defrosting and refreezing will make this loss of quality much greater, so be aware that refrozen meat (cooked or raw) will be of lower quality than once frozen meat. Also remember that freezing does not kill off the bacteria, so bacterial growth will pick up again once thawed.

It may be better to freeze the thawed meat after it has been cooked.

Refreezing meat isn't a good idea. But if you must, the meat should not have been old the first time it was frozen, it should have been thawed under refrigeration and then frozen again shortly after being thawed. Realize that the quality of the meat will be negatively affected. The flavor will likely degrade and the meat will be drier and tougher when cooked.

It's important to remember that a lot of store bought meat has already been frozen and thawed once (it will say "previously frozen" somewhere on the label). If you buy meat, take it home, throw it in the freezer, then thaw and refreeze it again later the meat has then been frozen three times.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_you_refreeze_already_thawed_meat#ixzz1kWEDHSpO

Edited by moosepup

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Alibi   

My girl has been going great on the VAN, its definatly making me more of a RAW follower. Although she does still get some innova biscuits and ziwi peak as well, but its primarily VAN she gets.

It seems to agree with her and she looks great, but it can still be a bit of a challange at times to get her to eat it as she is a very fussy dog who if it was up to her would just eat roast chicken all day.

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juice   

I can't get bonn away from the bowl after its gone, she even goes and stands in her spot ready for it too, she loves it! :laugh:

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Alibi   

I can't get bonn away from the bowl after its gone, she even goes and stands in her spot ready for it too, she loves it! :laugh:

I will swap you dogs :laugh: My fussy one that eats like a sparrow for your little piglet. Sooo much easier with the piglets.

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I am trying the Sensitive Skin Complete Mix for the first time today. I have worked out how much I need for the week and letting the mix and water ferment for 24 hours so it will be ready to use tomorrow with kangaroo mince.

My first question. The daily feeding guide for Lola is 55g Complete mix, 55ml water and 170g mince. So is it right that I give her for the day 170g mince mixed with 55g of the mix or would it be 110g of the mix because it has the water already in it?? I am confusing myself. I'm sure it would just be 55g of the mix.

Also, does this mix mean I don't need to feed any offal on top of just mince? I know Dr Symes recommends bones twice a week, but nothing about offal that I could find.

Thanks. :D

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Hi Lindainfa, sorry for the late reply.

Yes, 55g of mix before added water. If you soak a few days worth then you will be feeding 110g of soaked mix.

Offal, if it is human consumption (HC) grade is fantastic for dogs-

Offal is the collective term used for organ meats, like liver, kidney, heart, lung etc. Offal is very rich in protein, vitamins and minerals, and ideally, should make up about 20% of a dog or cats meat intake. As a general rule, offal meats should be purchased from your local butcher, and be HC grade, as the organs are often home to various parasites, and HC grade organ meats have had additional inspection processes applied to ensure they are free of parasites.

Dr Bruce Syme BVSc (Hons).

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Just to advise, I made up my first mix now. I was thinking about it last night and I think you should only add 55 gram of the completed mix (including the soaked up water) to 170 grams of meat. The 55 mls of water should not be added as 55 grams of mix, so I didnt add 110 of the mix. That is almost as much mix as the meat which doesnt seem right. 55mix to 170 meat seemed perfect. Just to clarify for others.

Wow, I really confused myself. LOL. But I think the instructions on the pack need to be clearer and simpler. Other than that, my dogs gobbled it up, but they normally have barf anyway so they are used to raw.

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Crisovar   

You are making it harder than it needs to be lol

If you are making multiple batches it is simply 55g of the dry mix for each day, add your water then when soaked add your quantity of meat then divide the lot into your daily portions.

I feed offal too and I simply include it when making up the batch as part of their ration.

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mushka   

I am considering using the CM as the vege component of a BARF diet. If my dog has a morning meal of CM/meat and an evening meal of RMBs would this still be considered a balanced diet?

So, I would half the CM/meat amount recommended for the day and feed about 300-400g chicken necks/wings in the evening (20 kg young dog, using the puppy mix)?

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Crisovar   

I kept the amount of CM the same and reduced the amount of muscle meat when feeding lots of meaty bones. I am sure Dr Symes will be happy to advise on your particular situation.

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Crisovar   

Yes thanks Crisovar, was really having a dumb moment. LOL

Easy to do :laugh:

You wont even have to think about it before too long, even my OH can do it now.

We simply worked out a scoop/cup that held the amount of dry CM we needed and then used the same for the water and away we went.

I have a friend who when she started using VAN made up every little meal for each animal separately, she ended up with different colour dishes for each dog etc...what a mess. She was visiting one day and watched me mix a batch for a week for everyone :idea: moment..she still laughs about it.

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skully   

Started feeding my 7 1/2 month old stafford the dry mix in with her roo mince last week. She has developed small pimple type things right down between her legs and some up under her front legs (arm pits)

Is it possible this is a just a change of diet reaction? Or just possible a reaction from us mowing the grass on the weekend?

Should we stick with it? or cut it out straight away because of this reaction?

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Started feeding my 7 1/2 month old stafford the dry mix in with her roo mince last week. She has developed small pimple type things right down between her legs and some up under her front legs (arm pits)

Is it possible this is a just a change of diet reaction? Or just possible a reaction from us mowing the grass on the weekend?

Should we stick with it? or cut it out straight away because of this reaction?

Hi Skully,

Im going to get Dr Bruce to answer this for you. It sounds like an external irritation to me, but he is the vet and, obviously, far more qualified to assess. Will PM you this afternoon with his answer, or his mobile number if he needs to ask you some more questions. Tonight, just give a roo only dinner until we can establish that it is an external irritant, and we can get those bumps away.

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I don't have any issues with this diet - never tried it but plenty of dogs seem to do well on it.

I do however, have issues with this assertion:

Do wolves suffer from allergies, flea hypersensitivity, gingivitis and gum disease, anal gland blockage, sensitive bowels and food allergy, hip or elbow dysplasia, diabetes, thyroid deficiency, early onset arthritis, autoimmune diseases or the vast array of cancers that are diagnosed in dogs today ? No !

Why not? Because they eat a natural raw diet, the same diet they have evolved to eat over 40 million years.

How would we know what wolves do and don't suffer from? Nature eliminates the unhealthy or the weak.

Wild wolves live for 6-8 years on average. Wolves don't come in anywhere near the array of sizes and shapes dogs do. Some of those sizes and shapes can lead to the issues the quoted statement alleges can be prevented by a 'natural raw diet'.

Sorry, but it sadly isn't that simple. I expect Dr Syme knows and acknowledges it isn't that simple. Feeding VAN, a raw diet (or any other diet for that matter) will not guarantee you a dog free of any of the conditions listed.

No diet is a magic bullet that cures all ills. Lets all acknowledge that as we strive to do the best for our dogs that we can. I've heard BARFers suggest that a 'natural diet' prevents PRA and HD and they've found out the hard way that it won't.

I'm all for folk being passionate about what they feed being the best for their dogs. But lets be realistic about it. No need for zealotry in any of the food camps.

Edited by Telida Whippets

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Miranda   

I don't have any issues with this diet - never tried it but plenty of dogs seem to do well on it.

I do however, have issues with this assertion:

Do wolves suffer from allergies, flea hypersensitivity, gingivitis and gum disease, anal gland blockage, sensitive bowels and food allergy, hip or elbow dysplasia, diabetes, thyroid deficiency, early onset arthritis, autoimmune diseases or the vast array of cancers that are diagnosed in dogs today ? No !

Why not? Because they eat a natural raw diet, the same diet they have evolved to eat over 40 million years.

How would we know what wolves do and don't suffer from? Nature eliminates the unhealthy or the weak.

Wild wolves live for 6-8 years on average. Wolves don't come in anywhere near the array of sizes and shapes dogs do. Some of those sizes and shapes can lead to the issues the quoted statement alleges can be prevented by a 'natural raw diet'.

Sorry, but it sadly isn't that simple. I expect Dr Syme knows and acknowledges it isn't that simple. Feeding VAN, a raw diet (or any other diet for that matter) will not guarantee you a dog free of any of the conditions listed.

No diet is a magic bullet that cures all ills. Lets all acknowledge that as we strive to do the best for our dogs that we can. I've heard BARFers suggest that a 'natural diet' prevents PRA and HD and they've found out the hard way that it won't.

I'm all for folk being passionate about what they feed being the best for their dogs. But lets be realistic about it. No need for zealotry in any of the food camps.

Very good post Telida Whippets :thumbsup:

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True, I only get 70% success rate in allergies with VAN program, and there is more to it than diet alone, but diet is the single most important factor in precipitating good health, or lack of - hence my emphasis. Note - wolves can live over 20 yrs in the wild.

If I could name just 1 thing that would improve more dogs lives world wide than any treatment or medication, it would be a healthy raw diet. That is based on 20 yrs as a vet, not just a dog lover.

Regards, Bruce

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Guest lavendergirl   
Guest lavendergirl

I notice on the VAN site that Dr Symes does not highly regard chicken - I wonder if Turkey would be a better choice in particular turkey mince (human grade).

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