Exercising Reactive Dogs Thread

[JulesP]

Hope he feels better soon Snook.

[Papillon Kisses]

Ah, I thought that might be the case. Thats great on the sleep front though. :)

[Two Best Dogs!]

Today we had some good and bad. I think, considering it was 3 strangers in one go in our house, one of which is a large old male person, she did really well.

The bad is that she did a lot of barking and growling in the backyard. Clearly didn't feel safe about my dad. She was more accepting of my brother and his girlfriend (watchful but not barking/growling/backing up everytime they breathed).

It was much better indoors, where most of my guest work has been, she didn't need to be coaxed into the loungeroom. Was reluctant to leave her bed but wasn't slinking/cowering. Didn't pee anywhere whenever someone got up or moved or waved an arm in conversation. She approached both my brother and his girlfriend. She only approached my dad towards the end when he had food. She would take tossed food from him though.

But! She did rest her head in his open hand and enjoyed some chin scratches. She had her worried face on but didn't move her head away when he stopped rubbing. She does like chin rubs.

I did record some of it on go pro - mostly the outdoors barking because i don't have it on video yet. Just cropping out personal family conversations and the like. So I'll share that in a bit for feedback on signs i missed, suggestions on what to do - i think maybe thistle doesn't know what to do when guests are in yard so resorts to barking? in the house her job is to go to bed and sit there. in backyard she doesn't have a job so seems at loose ends? taking suggestions on something I can teach her to do.

I think step 1 to do better next time, shouldn't have introduced her to them in the backyard. Should have introduced her in the lounge like I have with all the other guests. I think my tired brain was thinking give the house tour without her underfoot/accidentally cornered.

Next time with guests, put her to bed then invite them in. In the backyard she is always so vocal and suss.

But overall I think it was better. She wasn't AS barky or growly in the backyard. I think if my dad wasn't there she wouldn't have barked at all. But since Dad's her greatest fear she did feel the need to bark a bit.

I need some dinner now too while it uploads into editor.

I think my dad is both worried by her and likes her. I think mostly he's a little sad that she didn't like him straight away (he didn't believe me on how suss she is over strange men OR her size ;) )

Hopefully next time she meets him will go much better. Probably in a year or two.

I’m a little sad she barked and growled, but trying to keep optimistic. It was better than last time. I should have kept her in the house for initial greets. Overall she did really well - she was barking and growling but she wasn’t cowering or peeing in fear.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Two Best Dogs!]

Optimism is a little hard when you're sad your dog is sad but I'll get over it and optimism will come back when I've eaten I think putting her in her kennel would be difficult as it's so far out of the way so she can't see what's going on. I could get her one of those raised outdoor beds though, somewhere to put her that is her "safe zone" like with the beds and mats indoors.

I think telling her to sit or drop without some kind of personal space marker doesn't work well enough (although did work in cutting down on her barking. She was also pretty well behaved when I was showing them the shed/her training stuff so most of this seems confined to the backyard)

[Two Best Dogs!]

Yes, it is good to have people check in and remind what is going well so I don't get sad or hopeless.

Here is the video!

Sorry it's all choppy and we had a rocky start to it "Quit it" is the "quiet" command - I cut out any personal conversations or times I was looking at something other than Thistle (not to say she wasn't barking when I wasn't looking at her, just that it's hard to see how a dog is feeling when the camera is not on her). But I wouldn't say that the total time outside was longer than 6-7 minutes.

There's only a little bit of inside. To be honest, I had forgotten it was on and was carrying it...also she was calmer and quieter

I guess step 1, as mentioned above, have a job/task for her to do (i.e. sit in a place/bed) so not so many loose ends. Also, having guests throw kfc popcorn chicken at her had them quite close? Towards the end you can see her approaching and taking food from my brother/brother's girlfriend so I think most of the barking was towards my dad.

In a stroke of luck, the store I do the social rehab at on Thursdays has a new manager? He is of similar build and looks to my dad. So will practice lots of looking at him. Not sure I introduced myself well, I swear my brain turns off and I'm just working on instinctive energy with minimal thinking when doing anything dog-socialising. My brain is just so focussed on everything Thistle is doing/going on around us that proper people conversations are hard I feel exhausted afterwards!

Anyway, we are going to go have a hot drink and cuddle on the couch. Vegetating time and an early night. Obedience tomorrow! We won 2 weekly trick competitions in a row, so 2 new toys for us!

Next times:

Step 1 is to get her a raised bed/platform, as realised unlike inside the house where she is calmer and quiet because she knows to go to bed and it is safe in bed, in the yard there is no place for her to go sit and be safe on.

Step 2 would be to have her sitting on it as the guests come out

Step 3 is for me to stop being so worried and frazzled

Edited April 16, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Two Best Dogs!]

Thanks Snook. I don't mind hearing all the different approaches (as I figured I was probably doing some things that didn't work but at the time so much was going on that I wasnt sure what), as guests is not a common thing so i have time to think over what I think might work better next time and try to refine what we are doing instead of reacting to her reacting.

Would appreciate any behaviourists popping in to comment too.

I forgot about rewarding only when quiet :/ woops! Was so focussed on her associating them with good things like chicken popcorn

[Papillon Kisses]

One thing I noticed was that when outside, the visitors were kind of all over the place which could have made it more stressful since she had multiple areas to look at and get worried about. At one stage your dad was also peering into the windows of the other building which is unusual behaviour that could make her more suspicious. People are people and you can't control them, but perhaps one way to tackle visitors in the yard (figuratively ;) ) would be to have everyone in the one area sitting down quietly chatting, with Thistle able to choose how close she wanted to be to the group.

Obviously this visit was a bit different to most, but it can also help to gradually add one person at a time then slowly widen the circle of trusted humans until confidence around strangers is generalised. We did this with Malcolm, who was originally very fear reactive with all men — no man could enter the house, talk, move or basically exist without deafening barking and lunging alternated with hiding under furniture. We first desensitised/counter conditioned Malcolm with my dad, then my now-husband, then a couple of close family friends... a new person was ONLY introduced when he was comfortable with he previous additions... until many months later we happened to essentially have a parade of different types of men of all ages and appearances. Most he already knew from previous visits but there were some strangers, and Malcolm was absolutely fine. These days he's only fear reactive with men when they startle him by thrusting their hand over his head to pat him when he hasn't registered their existence. He also recovers from that pretty quickly.

We did it a bit differently to you in that we had a container of treats set up at the front door. Whenever any man entered he had to to pick some up and put it right under Malcolm's nose right as he came to them, then they'd calmly say "hello Malcolm" before moving on, not dwelling or forcing interaction. Having the food immediately presented like kind of short circuited Malcolm's response before the fear center in his brain kicked in.

By the way, that parade of men culminated in Malcolm selecting the scariest looking man in the room to jump up on for cuddles. A big burly tattooed man whose appearance would have previously terrified him. I may have shed a tear at that point.

You can do this!!

ETA: not saying this way's better, just sharing. :)

Edited April 18, 2016 by Papillon Kisses

[Two Best Dogs!]

Yeah I see they are all over the place. Having a place to put her would let me guide the visitors around in a more oganised manner instead of leaving them to flock all over the yard.

It's not in the video (I think) but a few times I told them off - for staring at her or making kissy noises XD Hard habits to break.

I am posting because although my dad had left, his boat broke down and needed a replacement. So I picked up the only copy of the item in melbourne then drove allllll the way down to the Peninsula. Seeing opportunity for another meet and more catching up with dad, I brought Thistle with.

She barked a bit at first while we sat at the beach, but after lunch we had her walking near him - even on the lead with Dad holding it for awhile. We drove around checking out Flinders and bits of Peninsula we could go to with a dog, and she was checking him out in the car and getting chin rubs, many treats from him. (She REALLY likes the car and is much more forgiving/curious of people in it) Then when hugging goodbye Thistle involved herself and Dad got to properly pat her for the first time!

Still worried, but progress!

Added bonus, some exposure to things like metal stairs, fishermen, boats, kids on scooters, staying in drop at a cafe as dogs/people walk past (first time we've done this. Much easier than obedience, she did great! I think that pets market we attend helped prepare her) and dingies + motor of a dingy.

The exhausted happy feelings from today will be a great buffer when she barks/growls and moves away from the trainer next week and flunks the advanced test as a result XD

Tomorrow we have the monthly pets market, late in the day. I'm thinking we will keep it low key, go sit in an out of the way location and just watch people/dogs for 30 minutes. Nothing too challenging after today. Hiding behind the dog trainer stand is always good.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Papillon Kisses]

Love the setup Thistle!

[Papillon Kisses]

How's everyone going?

We had a VB follow up on Thursday and decided to reduce Malcolm's Prozac dose back down to half. Since lowering it we've seen more play and social interaction return which is pleasing. He even did some proper zoomies yesterday! We just need to keep seeing consistent improvement.

Unfortunately we stressed him out too much yesterday when we took him to my parents' house for lunch. He was ok until he was frightened by the sound of a hose hitting a plastic sheet and lost it. From that moment he was very distressed and kept barking at every little noise. Taking him to a quiet room didn't have help much so I took him home early. Thankfully we live nearby! It seems like stress has a hangover effect too; he was thrown off by any little trigger last night and again this morning, barking at everything and nothing.

I feel so guilty, though on the plus side he did not stare at nor show aggression towards my mum.

[Papillon Kisses]

Mal's on Prozac (fluoxetine) Snook, not clomicalm... you might be getting mixed up with Scottiesmum. :) He was starting to get back some zest for life on the full dose, but it was apparently taking too long for it to just be a temporary side effect. We may increase his dose by half or add in something else, depending on how he responds.

Anyway, I'm so happy to hear that Justice's stitches are out and that the cone is off!! What a relief for you too. Now just to get that shoulder healed up. It's awesome that your vet has been so accommodating too; not having that extra stress would have made a big difference to his recovery.

[Papillon Kisses]

Ah I getcha. Yeah, it's hard to see them not themselves (the best version of themselves that is) especially when it's because you're giving them something.

Meanwhile......... I got Malcolm to operate his treat toy this morning instead of trembling next to it!!!

[Two Best Dogs!]

Unsure if this book has been mentioned, so I will share!

""Behavior Adjustment Training 2.0: A New Philosophy and Techniques for Dealing with Fear, Frustration, and Aggression in Dogs.""

I like it because it sounds like it's got super-simple explanations and illustrations to help get things sticking in my head! Also about time I started doing more stucture BAT than waffling my way along dealing with things as they happen (which has been working but I guess with people as the final hurdle, a more structured and planned out approach to help ME)

Understanding BAT: Key Concepts

BAT Dog Returns: Peanut's Lessons for Me

Quick Fixes: Safety and Management Essentials

How to See Trouble Before It Starts

Leash Skills for Freedom and Safety

BAT Set-ups for Reactivity

Up Close and Tight Spaces: Mark and Move

Troubleshooting BAT Set-Ups

Surprise: Sudden Environmental Contrast

BAT on Everyday Walks

Love Thy Neighbor: Fence Fighting

"Who Is It?" Teaching Your Dog to Enjoy Guests

BAT for Puppy Socialization

For Trainers and Behaviorists: Using BAT with Clients

Conclusion

Appendix 1: Clicker Training Foundations

Appendix 2: Other Techniques that use Functional Reinforcers

Appendix 3: For Trainers and Behaviorists

Appendix 4: Trainers and Clients Share Their Experiences with BAT

Glossary

So I've just ordered the paperback from book depository! As well as that 101 dog tricks from the trick dog title people

Edited April 30, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Two Best Dogs!]

Aww his poor eyes. Mayhaps he will surprise you and accept the decline gracefully?

Yesterday I did not enjoy obedience much, I was getting lots of conflicting instruction from 2 instructors in class and also from previous class/trainers and even other class mates (who are good trainers and privately I agree with their suggestion).

I don't think I explained well the reasoning behind the gradual increments I want to do with thistle. Got myself quite worked up about it at home because I think how we are doing the one position is actually worsening her in class? Or I'm just plain upset because I don't understand what they are doing or what I'm meant to be doing. Thistld has been failing at this for months. If she was going to understand this method she'd have understood by now

So I've kind of gone above to the head trainer to ask if he can observe what we are doing. Hoping I have not offended the current trainer but I think the trust between me and thistle is strained because of it and also neither of us is having fun. And I went to obedience to teach her confidence first, obedience second...

[JulesP]

What is the thing?

[Two Best Dogs!]

Bloody Stand for Exam ????

Head trainer gave me a video back in February and doing that increment method has been working outside of class but inclass it's a different more direct approach and Thistle breaks every time (different trainers. First one was too kids gloves but the second one I think is too confronting? )

So I'm hoping head trainer can train all of us next session quickly after class so thistle can succeed at it in class environment. Or at least explain in words I understand what we should be doing ????

Edited May 1, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[JulesP]

I wouldn't be doing stand for exam with her at all. She just isn't ready for it. The most I would be doing is walking around her. And an approach, retreat type of thing.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Agreed they are not trying to touch her but the immediate head on approach freaks her out. So she barks and breaks.

This is video head trainer gave us and this method has been working with friends and pet store staff (but start out with ppl a bit further away but each circle is closer and closer)

But unfortunately have only been able to do it like this in class twice, at my request with the trainee trainers. But it worked in those cases, one even a light touch on thistles back over a month ago.

All these public holidays not helping ????

Edited May 1, 2016 by Thistle the dog

[Two Best Dogs!]

Oh. In the mean time since we are taking a break from exam stand to relax, am working on her normal stand and focus. Will take her to our usual pet store and practice standing and looking at me/ignoring passerby.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Right now even with stand at home her tail is starting to hang, she is not enjoying it so am trying to turn it back into a game and build her confidence up and let her know she's doing it right. I think perhaps the trainer is seeing it as thistle being disobedient because she knows barking works but i think they might be under estimating her drive to please me? But she needs to realise the pleasing me (stand still and ignore close ppl) doesn't mean she will be hurt (successful ppl passing by at closer and closer) and I don't think she's confident in that yet.

Ah well. Will see what head trainer thinks. I have to remember to go grab him after class though! It will only be about 5 mins.