Red Fox Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I like the sound and looks of these dogs (from another forum) but have not met any of their dogs - anyone know about them? http://www.kovacsshepherds.com.au/ I also like the look of the Schutzshep dogs - think I met some and the breeder at a SchH trial once (was a while ago though) Though it is most likely that if I get a bigger dog the next one will be a Malinois. Yes. I have met the breeder and several dogs from Kovacs. Very nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Go to your nearest Schutzhund club, meet as many dogs as you can. If this is your first, an adult dog might be a far less steep learning curve. Aidan2, there is a difference between a dog bred for shutzhund, and a dog for PP. Sport dogs have very high prey drives. While for PP, you would be looking at a dog with moderate prey drive but also civilian drive. The ratio most PP handlers look for is a ratio of 60/40 with the 60% being civilian drive. Ofcourse the ratio differs between handlers but you get my idea. If you dont agree i would love to hear your opinion on this issue :) Robbie Not really, I have no idea what you mean... My "sport" dog has plenty of prey and "civil" drive (as you call it). I have never heard of a ratio when referring to drives, I didn't know you could breed ratio/ numbers into dogs. You mentioned Czech dogs - The Czech dogs here in OZ are Schutzhund titled dogs or have been bred from Schutzhund titled dogs......... Sport dogs.......... You can get a SchH 3 dog, awesome at doing the circuit he has been taught to do a thousand times. Bring him into a real life situation, where some guy is mugging you on the street thats where i would want the dog to react. The SchH test was originally brought out to show the strengths of the dog. And im sure on a world class level those titles still represent exactly that. These dogs are titled...No thanks you can have them. yes yes very good, we all know the showline dogs are rubbish. BTW, schutzhund is a temperament test designed to not only showcase strengths but also weaknesses. It is merely a platform where dogs can be evaluated. Some are better suited for sport while others can make good service dogs (not bad for a herding dog...). Re "Bring him into a real life situation etc"........ Here we go! Maybe you should join that Specialist Canine Forum....... My experience with PP dogs is that for the most they are generally unstable, much like their owners..... Most wouldn't cut it on the Schutzhund field because they are not good enough, generally reactive and bite out of fear. I would love to hear what breeding of Czech dogs you like. If I was a betting person I would bet that the pedigree would be littered with SchH titles ..... Edited January 14, 2012 by Yesmaam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 My experience with PP dogs is that for the most they are generally unstable, much like their owners..... Most wouldn't cut it on the Schutzhund field because they are not good enough, generally reactive and bite out of fear. Before training for protection was banned/restricted to the point of suffocation, there were some really good training orgs who instructed in that field. I found the dogs involved in protection training were actually VERY sound and certainly far from unstable. Dogs without the right nerve and disposition were rejected as candidates for protection training. Maybe what you're seeing Yesmaam, is the result of poxy training, rather than protection training as it should be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) My experience with PP dogs is that for the most they are generally unstable, much like their owners..... Most wouldn't cut it on the Schutzhund field because they are not good enough, generally reactive and bite out of fear. Before training for protection was banned/restricted to the point of suffocation, there were some really good training orgs who instructed in that field. I found the dogs involved in protection training were actually VERY sound and certainly far from unstable. Dogs without the right nerve and disposition were rejected as candidates for protection training. Maybe what you're seeing Yesmaam, is the result of poxy training, rather than protection training as it should be? Definitely! I think the methods of training in prey drive are not so suited to a P.P dog either.I find with the right instincts,the best are the the ones who take everything in their stride,confidently alert and trained to bring out their pack drives. High prey drive I find a nuisance. Edited January 14, 2012 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&m Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 My experience with PP dogs is that for the most they are generally unstable, much like their owners..... Most wouldn't cut it on the Schutzhund field because they are not good enough, generally reactive and bite out of fear. Before training for protection was banned/restricted to the point of suffocation, there were some really good training orgs who instructed in that field. I found the dogs involved in protection training were actually VERY sound and certainly far from unstable. Dogs without the right nerve and disposition were rejected as candidates for protection training. Maybe what you're seeing Yesmaam, is the result of poxy training, rather than protection training as it should be? Probably talking about security dogs in the private sector, they often like sharp fear aggressive dogs then they don't have to train them to look intimidating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&m Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Bobby, I've no experience personally but do know of a breeder in SA with some nice Czech line dogs. http://www.izilop.com/ Oh yeah, thats what im talking bout ;) !! Beychief has a bitch for Izilop lines :D I think Beychief's are primarily working/showline mixes aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&m Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hey everyone, I havent posted here for a while, but i just wanted to ask people on their experiences here in Australia with PP dogs. Personally i am a big fan of the Czech dogs that excel in this field, particularly my favourite line would be the alpinebase/Jinopo dogs. Now i am still learning alot about this field, and the characteristics of dogs that stand out. I am a big fan of the old style german shepherd working lines who are as true to what the founder wanted them to be. So i am wanting to hear from people who have experience or just interest in this field and their advice on finding a breeder in Australia, and also a trainer/mentor that is recommended here in Australia. Thanks everyone and i cant wait to hear from everyone Hi Bobby, Alpinebase are not Czech dogs, are you talking about AplineK9 in the USA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Bobby, I've no experience personally but do know of a breeder in SA with some nice Czech line dogs. http://www.izilop.com/ Oh yeah, thats what im talking bout ;) !! Beychief has a bitch for Izilop lines :D I think Beychief's are primarily working/showline mixes aren't they? Primarily SL, some WL on her website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Probably talking about security dogs in the private sector, they often like sharp fear aggressive dogs then they don't have to train them to look intimidating? I expect you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) My experience with PP dogs is that for the most they are generally unstable, much like their owners..... Most wouldn't cut it on the Schutzhund field because they are not good enough, generally reactive and bite out of fear. Before training for protection was banned/restricted to the point of suffocation, there were some really good training orgs who instructed in that field. I found the dogs involved in protection training were actually VERY sound and certainly far from unstable. Dogs without the right nerve and disposition were rejected as candidates for protection training. Maybe what you're seeing Yesmaam, is the result of poxy training, rather than protection training as it should be? Probably talking about security dogs in the private sector, they often like sharp fear aggressive dogs then they don't have to train them to look intimidating? Spot on. Erny, as you know, the term "protection training" is quite broad. I was referring to (p)ersonal (p)rotection training as mentioned by Booby the Samoyed which is conducted by the private sector. Not sure of any organisations that train dogs in PP though. Edited January 14, 2012 by Yesmaam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bianca.a Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I have a pup from Raennik (WL breeder in QLD), so far he is amazing, so so confident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Spot on.Erny, as you know, the term "protection training" is quite broad. I was referring to (p)ersonal (p)rotection training as mentioned by Booby the Samoyed which is conducted by the private sector. Not sure of any organisations that train dogs in PP though. There will always be the good and the bad in all parts of training. I'm sure not every SCH dog is a steely nerved dog either. Actually a good protection dog should not be a fear biter nor highly reactive. That dog should never have been trained for protection in the first place and should have been rejected. Protection is not about instability and explosive aggression, thats nothing more then a dangerous nutter on a leash. I've seen dogs like this, they make a lot of noise and when confronted, piss themselves and run away. Once I worked with a guard who had a dog like this he was mortified he then had to be left on his own to patrol for 12 hours with a useless animal. Protection is about self confidence and not backing down as you have to trust this dog to not only protect you, but to be able to settle and be a safe animal to have around in society. We seem to have lost that idea in Australia a bit with the way some people think training should be. Not all PP dogs will be Sch lined. They may for GSDs but in other breeds you will find titles that go beyond Sch, like ringsport and KNPV. Really liking KNPV line dogs they have an extra edge to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I have a pup from Raennik (WL breeder in QLD), so far he is amazing, so so confident. That is one cute puppy. Good luck with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Bobby, I've no experience personally but do know of a breeder in SA with some nice Czech line dogs. http://www.izilop.com/ Oh yeah, thats what im talking bout ;) !! Beychief has a bitch for Izilop lines :D I think Beychief's are primarily working/showline mixes aren't they? Primarily SL, some WL on her website. She has a good mix of show and working lines. A stud from Raennik, bitch from Izilop, she has another 2 Full WL bitches that I know of (I met a number of years ago). Though they aren't on her site that I can see, but its in dire need of an update. (as are most breeders sites :laugh:) Beautiful dogs either way, and the most amazing kennels! I believe most of her Showlines have working dogs in their background as well. I have a pup from Raennik (WL breeder in QLD), so far he is amazing, so so confident. Oooo who're his parents (if you don't mind me asking)?! :D My boy has Raennik in him, I wonder if they're related :D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I don't know the exact lines behind my boy (I don't have papers for him) but suspect it would be in the general direction of the types of dogs these guys breed http://www.regalshepherds.com/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bianca.a Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Of course I don't mind :) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=603818 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=591149 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&m Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Spot on.Erny, as you know, the term "protection training" is quite broad. I was referring to (p)ersonal (p)rotection training as mentioned by Booby the Samoyed which is conducted by the private sector. Not sure of any organisations that train dogs in PP though. There will always be the good and the bad in all parts of training. I'm sure not every SCH dog is a steely nerved dog either. Actually a good protection dog should not be a fear biter nor highly reactive. That dog should never have been trained for protection in the first place and should have been rejected. Protection is not about instability and explosive aggression, thats nothing more then a dangerous nutter on a leash. I've seen dogs like this, they make a lot of noise and when confronted, piss themselves and run away. Once I worked with a guard who had a dog like this he was mortified he then had to be left on his own to patrol for 12 hours with a useless animal. Protection is about self confidence and not backing down as you have to trust this dog to not only protect you, but to be able to settle and be a safe animal to have around in society. We seem to have lost that idea in Australia a bit with the way some people think training should be. Not all PP dogs will be Sch lined. They may for GSDs but in other breeds you will find titles that go beyond Sch, like ringsport and KNPV. Really liking KNPV line dogs they have an extra edge to them. Nekhbet, I totally agree with the type of dog you describe for protection training, but unfortunately not all involved in security dog training train that type of dog and tend to often strengthen the confidence in nervy reactive dogs to produce what they consider is strength and courage usually described as sharpness and civil aggression. In time, these people get a false impression of what a good is and unless a dog naturally wants to lunge on the leash and bite everyone, they believe a stable dog is then crap with no protective traits? Sharp dogs with civil aggression as they describe what is essentially a fear biter, can't be used in Schutzhund because they lack stability and handler control, infact it would be difficult to get one of these dogs onto the trial field without the dog taking an aggressive lunge at someone on the pathway to the field gate, so a GSD that can't pass a breed suitability test then becomes a better dog than one that can You are correct to say that not all dogs who have passed Schutzhund trials and gained titles have the right nerve for real protection training, but those dogs although have passed Schutzhund trialling won't excel at it either. High scoring dogs in Sch3 protection phase will generally have the nerve required for real protection training, any of the top level WUSV competition dogs we don't get here in Australia to see other than Fax vom Grenzganger about 10 years ago imported as an old retired dog will have the desired breed traits for real protection work. Let's not confuse a Sch3 titled showline dog, that's not a competition dog comparison, neither would a Sch3 showline dog win a world title. Although not all Sch titled dogs will have the right traits for real protection training, a good dog that has will pass Sch testing regardless how good it's assumed protection quality may be, if the dog can't also display stability, trainabilty and handler control to pass Sch testing, it's a crap dog and doesn't need to be reproduced. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m&m Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I have a pup from Raennik (WL breeder in QLD), so far he is amazing, so so confident. Gorgeous pup, nice pedigree too, have fun :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Of course I don't mind :) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=603818 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=591149 :D They have great grandparents in common, Vonforrell Amber (IID) http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=414584 and Fax Vom Grenzgänger http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=123934 my boys sire http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=740383 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I don't know the exact lines behind my boy (I don't have papers for him) but suspect it would be in the general direction of the types of dogs these guys breed http://www.regalshepherds.com/index.html My boy also has Alpinebase in his lines, which some of those dogs do too. Cool :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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