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Kirislin

Here We Go Again, I'm Not A Professional, But I Have A Question

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I've said it many times before, I dont want to get into professional photography, I know I dont have the skill, here's my dilemma. I'm going to be photographing some horses in training this evening, just for my own interests, not with the intention of selling them, BUT, in case anyone asks to purchase some, I dont want to stuff up an opportunity like I did at the motorcycle track day, when I ended up giving away some really good photos to people I didn't know, and who I dont think really appreciated getting them for free, I say that because they didn't even bother thanking me.

I must have given away hundreds of photos now at different sporting events and I'm starting to think I'm a push over. Even though I'd be taking them anyway, for my own pleasure, I take time to edit (as best I can) and emails back and forth, hunting through pages of photos for other people, it takes up my time and effort!

I'm never sure what to say, how much to charge, and how to physically go about giving them the photos, and me getting their payment. Do I get them to deposit money into my bank account and give them paper copies of the photos or do I give them photos on a disc, if so what's to stop them re editing them. I'm confused.

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get a website like smugmug or red bubble, post them up there in galleries and then let them send you the money for the ones they want, you can then either chose to email them back (in which case they get a digital file, and you can;t stop them though doing what they like to it), or go through the additional cost of getting address, printing a 4x6 or whatever size and posting to them (in which case make them pay for postage too) All you give out at the event is details of where they go to look at the shots, it is up to them to sort through and find, and buy. You will feel a lot better as you are still taking shots for yourself anyway, but not feeling like you are being taken advantage of (which you are being now), and you are right - they people I feel least appreciated any work I did was those I did as photos in exchange for time - anyone who has ever contracted me to do a paid shoot has been far more appreciative. Costs - well, up to you, but I do shots at cat shows (when i am there anyway), at $15 an image, which is a websized file, if they want a print (5x7), it is $30, full sized digital image is $60.

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Put them in an album on Red Bubble with a big markup.

Make up some little cards/flyers as to where they can find them and give them out to anyone who is interested.

The above saves lots of dramas.

Edited by anniek

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If you post the photos online, there is no way to stop them just downloading them from the website. You'd need to put a big watermark right across the whole photo, to make it worth it for people to pay for the photo rather than just saving it to their computer and removing the watermark.

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Unless you're willing to set up a website where people can sort through the images and select the ones they want then I agree with the suggestion of using RedBubble and marking up the prices. I'd also do a very difficult to remove watermark for this type of situation as they are so easy to remove. I had to remove one in December from a photo and it took me less than 5 minutes even though it stretched across the width of the image. Before anyone slams me for it, I took the photo from a friend's facebook page where she was allowed to post the watermarked one and had also purchased an unwatermarked one that wasn't online. I couldn't ask her for the unmarked one as the photo was for a photo book I was making her as a memorial gift, after her dog had passed away.

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put it this way, as a pro photographer, I have heard of that many cases of people not even bothering to remove watermarks, and just printing them off anyway, to know that if they really want to steal an image, they will. Sadly, there are people that are out there that always want something for nothing - personally I believe in TANSTAAFL (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch), but since they were previously getting them for free anyway, anything now gained will be a bonus anyway

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You could always ask for their address (if you know which horse beloing to that person) and print proofs (eg 20 to a page thumbnails) and post that and ordering info.

If you email proofs they will often end up on facebook evenwith the watermark. If you stick them online they will often end up on facebook with or without watermark.

Lately I have just been asking for addresses for anyone who is not a regular customer and posting out the printed proofs - yes it costs the cost of the stamp but makes it hard to keep coming back to me and asking for more if they just want a facebook image and the legit buyers which the majority are will be fine with it and use the proofs to order.

I offer prints and high res email images. The high res are about 1.5mb so not the full image size and only via email - I dont do images on CD (unless its a big amount for a corporate sponsor or its a private on location shoot such as a stud stallion and the fee paid is for that service). I wait for payment first before printing or sending as I've been caught in the past with excess spare photos that were never paid for or ones that were emailed through and never paid for.

Edited by rubiton

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This is an interesting thread, I am wondering say like in Kirislins case she is at an event (any event) taking photos of people and their things (animal or whatever) do you then have to get permission to sell a pic of said person or animal etc? or should ou get permission before you even shoot and say you are shooting with the view to sell the images online? Its very confusing.

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This is an interesting thread, I am wondering say like in Kirislins case she is at an event (any event) taking photos of people and their things (animal or whatever) do you then have to get permission to sell a pic of said person or animal etc? or should ou get permission before you even shoot and say you are shooting with the view to sell the images online? Its very confusing.

I got permission to take photos prior to going, but I didn't say I might sell them, because it wasn't my intention. I only have it in mind because in the past I've been approached for photos and so far have just given them away. If I went along with the intention of taking photos to sell I would be upfront about it.

As it was no one approached me the other day about purchasing photos so I didn't have to worry anyway. :laugh:

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tlc - bascially if you are on public land and you are not usingn the photos in a derogatory way you are allowed to take and sell them. However the thing to be mindful of commercial use it is always a good idea to get in contact with the person in the photo to ensure its ok (eg a feed company may ask to use a photo but the rider may happen to be sponsored by another feed company so best to check).

The srgument has also come up about say a horse being in a shot (no people and the photo being used to promote for eg the photographer and if its allowed). Again on public land and horses do not have the same rights as people unles they are trademarked (and thats a whole lot of different rules)when it comes to 'model release'.

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Ive often thought of putting up a redbubble as like Kirislin because I find myself spending too much time doing freebies. I love doing freebies for friends but when friends of friends want a pic I do get a bit *sigh* about doing that. I love redbubble site I have one but have never posted. Does RB sales mean you are technically making money from pics and so drops "amateur" status for insurance & the like? How easy is it to steal off RB if you post a pic? Currently most ppl request pics of my FB, not secure I guess but low res pics. I have even had people come up to me and request pics of their child when attending my childs formal!!!

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I would have thought if you are just selling a handful of photos through red bubble it is still a hobby.

The be a business you pretty much have to register a business name and threfore have an ABN, maybe register for GST if thats the customer type you have (magazines often prefer to deal with gst registered business) and if you have a website or other method where you are activly getting your name out there to sell phtos.

A few photos on Redbubble and similar sites and I would not call that a professional photographer (even if techincally according to a dictionary you are a professional if you make income from selling an image). I think there is a definition somewhere that mentioned if you go and plan to derive an income/profit from something rather than doing it as a hobby and sell a few here and there.

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Selling a few prints on RedBubble doesn't make photography your income. You're allowed to make money from a hobby without declaring it provided it fits within the ATO's guidelines. Whether it would affect your insurance though I'm not sure. You'd need to ring and ask them.

There are some links making the rounds at the moment warning of scraper sites that have stolen images from RedBubble and other sites without permission and are using them to generate traffic to their sites. Several of mine have been taken and tons of others have had huge amounts stolen. They're low resolution and the sites aren't selling the images, just using them to get you to look at their website. Some of them have been shut down due to letters sent by RedBubble members about copyright infringement. Here's a link to what's doing the rounds at the moment. http://www.redbubble.com/people/paintability/journal

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anyone can easily steal an image just by doing a screen capture anyway, then using an editing software and cropping and removing the rest of the stuff, so pretty much take it for granted that once it is online anywhere, if someone is devious enough to want to steal it, they will.

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Selling a few prints on RedBubble doesn't make photography your income. You're allowed to make money from a hobby without declaring it provided it fits within the ATO's guidelines. Whether it would affect your insurance though I'm not sure. You'd need to ring and ask them.

There are some links making the rounds at the moment warning of scraper sites that have stolen images from RedBubble and other sites without permission and are using them to generate traffic to their sites. Several of mine have been taken and tons of others have had huge amounts stolen. They're low resolution and the sites aren't selling the images, just using them to get you to look at their website. Some of them have been shut down due to letters sent by RedBubble members about copyright infringement. Here's a link to what's doing the rounds at the moment. http://www.redbubble.com/people/paintability/journal

where have you seen your own photos. I'd have no idea if someones taken mine. I did see one on facebook that I'm not sure where they got it from, a friend told me about it. that's the only one I know of.

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Selling a few prints on RedBubble doesn't make photography your income. You're allowed to make money from a hobby without declaring it provided it fits within the ATO's guidelines. Whether it would affect your insurance though I'm not sure. You'd need to ring and ask them.

There are some links making the rounds at the moment warning of scraper sites that have stolen images from RedBubble and other sites without permission and are using them to generate traffic to their sites. Several of mine have been taken and tons of others have had huge amounts stolen. They're low resolution and the sites aren't selling the images, just using them to get you to look at their website. Some of them have been shut down due to letters sent by RedBubble members about copyright infringement. Here's a link to what's doing the rounds at the moment. http://www.redbubble.com/people/paintability/journal

where have you seen your own photos. I'd have no idea if someones taken mine. I did see one on facebook that I'm not sure where they got it from, a friend told me about it. that's the only one I know of.

One of the journal entries in the link I posted has a link to a site called ratedesi and if you type your RedBubble username in it brings up a heap of your images. I just went to double check and it looks like they've successfully had this site stopped too as it just says page not found when I put my username in.

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This issue has come up on the facebook page for my camera club so thought I'd share the info as it includes a tool for searching for your images that may have been stolen. The second link gives a much better explanation of how to use the tool than the one provided with the tool.

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Redbubble isn't really intended for event photography..

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I have had this issue too. I have taken shots at dog shows, that I have watermarked and put on FB - people then ask for a full resolution copy of that image for free. They end up on DOL or in ads in Dog News etc. I get a little bit cranky - but in the dog world, politically, I think I would be stupid to complain. I, also would like to work out what to do about this in the future.

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I have had this issue too. I have taken shots at dog shows, that I have watermarked and put on FB - people then ask for a full resolution copy of that image for free. They end up on DOL or in ads in Dog News etc. I get a little bit cranky - but in the dog world, politically, I think I would be stupid to complain. I, also would like to work out what to do about this in the future.

When you put them on facebook - the low res ones - just note that if anyoen would like the full sizeimage the price is 'whatever' and they can pay you through paypal or paymate or can contact you for bank details. Then you dont have to say no please pay its there in front of them. What is the cost for well your upload amount your time to find it your time to store the image, the upkeep of your camera, etc

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