Showpony Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Hi, Just wondering if the parents of the fence climbing, fruit stealing child.......have apologized or even taken the time to talk to you about this incident........it's just I dont think I would have trusted the brother to even tell his parents what happen, seeing he was supposed to be watching the child in the first place.......so whilst the parents will never win a Parent of the Year Award......think it's still important that they do know what happened Edited February 7, 2012 by Showpony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Wow. It's a good thing your dogs are happy to see strangers in their yard... Imagine how it would work out for you if they weren't Yes, it wouldn't have been the parents of the child who were at fault . It is his right as a child to go into other's yards and steal. I totally agree! However in the eyes of the law and the anti-dog doogooders if a dog attacked a child in this situation you can get your bottom dollar it would be the dog and the owner who are at fault with the dog being PTS Nope. Read the law. A dog that attacks in its own backyard is not generally held to be at fault. Under normal circumstances I'd agree...however given that one of the dogs is a Staffordshire Bull Terrier....the media would have a field day, the anti-dog lobby would join in and the end result would be the same. That was my thought... And with the other being a grey hound... I know their image is slowly improving, but there is still the non believers out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Gosh Ellz, I know how you felt. We had a party here well away from the dogs (we are on 5 acres) and I looked out into my GSD's yard and one of the drunken young blokes was playing with my dog!!! All was okay, but suppose it hadn't been??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Wow. It's a good thing your dogs are happy to see strangers in their yard... Imagine how it would work out for you if they weren't Yes, it wouldn't have been the parents of the child who were at fault . It is his right as a child to go into other's yards and steal. I totally agree! However in the eyes of the law and the anti-dog doogooders if a dog attacked a child in this situation you can get your bottom dollar it would be the dog and the owner who are at fault with the dog being PTS Nope. Read the law. A dog that attacks in its own backyard is not generally held to be at fault. Under normal circumstances I'd agree...however given that one of the dogs is a Staffordshire Bull Terrier....the media would have a field day, the anti-dog lobby would join in and the end result would be the same. That was my thought... And with the other being a grey hound... I know their image is slowly improving, but there is still the non believers out there I honestly don't think the average greyhound would even think to bite an "intruder" (although admittedly none of mine ever seem to do thinking in general so..) Of all the greys we'd had through here, all the visitors we've had come and go (including people coming in to do stuff while we were out), there's never been any behaviour like that, they just don't seem interested in guarding. Of course.. a greyhound standing back and watching a child get bitten - probably watching with that slightly slow, special greyhound face on, like they're trying to think but it hurts or something - is still a greyhound at the scene of a attack and guilty just by being present. Add to that a staffordshire BULL terrier and the media would have the perfect story. I'd be politely informing the parents that any children found wandering the property would be assumed strays and handed in to the nearest police station. Rural areas are no place for small children to wander unsupervised- dogs are the least of their worries, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Ella have you moved off your acerage?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 HA I know that, but average joe doesn't.... To him every bull breed is a pit bull remember, to him greys are those dogs that have to be muzzled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Ella have you moved off your acerage?? I've been back in suburbia since June last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hi, Just wondering if the parents of the fence climbing, fruit stealing child.......have apologized or even taken the time to talk to you about this incident........it's just I dont think I would have trusted the brother to even tell his parents what happen, seeing he was supposed to be watching the child in the first place.......so whilst the parents will never win a Parent of the Year Award......think it's still important that they do know what happened No, they have not mentioned it. Come to that, we've never actually spoken. And I'm really quite thankful. I will not go into details here but I believe that the best thing in this situation is to keep my distance. If it happens again, I will rethink the situation but until then, I'm not going to shake a can of snakes just to see if it will hiss..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loving my Oldies Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm not going to shake a can of snakes just to see if it will hiss..... Great expression Can I borrow it? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm not going to shake a can of snakes just to see if it will hiss..... Great expression Can I borrow it? :laugh: :laugh: Course you can....I did! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 My intehwebs doesn't seem to agree with me using the quote function directly to answer posts this evening so.. Yep, GG, I was agreeing with you. And sort of disagreeing with Erny, but probably should've quoted that for clarification. Hopefully this won't crash my intehwebs again.. Even the most socialised and well-behaved dogs can misinterpret what we're doing by telling off a (in this instance) stranger who is trespassing and think it would be the only right and proper pack thing to do by helping you deal with the situation. Perhaps in some breeds but I'd be literally mind-blown (as in, you'd be having to dry-clean my brains off your clothes, from all the way over there) if a greyhound responded that way. I have little doubt that even if I actually grabbed someone, started shaking them and screaming for my dogs to help, the most help I'd likely get is them frolicking giddily around, enjoying the exciting sounds and the movement. That kind of response simply isn't normal for the breed, in my opinion- guarding instinct should not be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilly Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Wow. It's a good thing your dogs are happy to see strangers in their yard... Imagine how it would work out for you if they weren't Yes, it wouldn't have been the parents of the child who were at fault . It is his right as a child to go into other's yards and steal. I totally agree! However in the eyes of the law and the anti-dog doogooders if a dog attacked a child in this situation you can get your bottom dollar it would be the dog and the owner who are at fault with the dog being PTS Nope. Read the law. A dog that attacks in its own backyard is not generally held to be at fault. Just did a quick check on this and from what I could see the law in Tasmania doesn't differentiate between a dog bite in public or a dog bite on private property specifically. It does however say that a dog is not considered to be "rushing or chasing" if confined securely behind a fence but the laws given for actual bites don't seem to make any distinction between public or private property. Kind of ambiguous really... We had a similar issue with a child approaching the side of my yard and wanting to pat my two (security) dogs who were barking loudly at him. Dogs where securely confined to my back yard and the child came in through my unfenced front yard and then down the side of my house about 2 or 3 metres and was about to put his hand in a small gap to pat the dogs ... while mum stood on the front footpath waiting for him. Thankfully I was home at the time (normally I would be at work) and was heading out the front door when I heard them barking - as I came out the front door when I saw the child heading down the side of the house and mum stated "its ok, he just wants to pat the dogs". I don't know any idiots that would want to pat two large dogs who are going mental ... but obviously mum through it was ok Lets say they where told in no uncertain terms what I thought of the child entering my yard and approaching my dogs (was firm with child but my anger was directed at the mother) ... and then to back it up I contacted the childs school (he was in uniform) and explained the situation and suggested it might be a good idea to contact the RSPCA Education Program ... they got back to me and were very concerned. They apparently regularly have the RSPCA out at the school and would ask them to reinforce no patting unknown dogs without asking, they were going to add a reminder in their newsletter and were going to mention it on their school parade (which I thought was fantastic). We have extensive warnings on the gates and while the gates are padlocked and the yard is secure for the dogs ... there was a smallish gap between the gate post and the gate to allow for the swing of the hinges. A hand through that gap would most likely have resulted in a bite ... and my dogs would could have been declared "dangerous" and even potentially destroyed. We have now restricted the dogs access to that side of the yard and have placed shadecloth on the inside of the gate which blocks the gap without restricting the swing on the gate. After numerous discussions with council - basically if anyone enters my yard (invited or otherwise) and is bitten or if my dogs are on the loose and someone is bitten - the dog would be treated the same. The fact they are secured in my back yard doesn't offer them any protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 My intehwebs doesn't seem to agree with me using the quote function directly to answer posts this evening so.. Yep, GG, I was agreeing with you. And sort of disagreeing with Erny, but probably should've quoted that for clarification. Hopefully this won't crash my intehwebs again.. Even the most socialised and well-behaved dogs can misinterpret what we're doing by telling off a (in this instance) stranger who is trespassing and think it would be the only right and proper pack thing to do by helping you deal with the situation. Perhaps in some breeds but I'd be literally mind-blown (as in, you'd be having to dry-clean my brains off your clothes, from all the way over there) if a greyhound responded that way. I have little doubt that even if I actually grabbed someone, started shaking them and screaming for my dogs to help, the most help I'd likely get is them frolicking giddily around, enjoying the exciting sounds and the movement. That kind of response simply isn't normal for the breed, in my opinion- guarding instinct should not be there. Yep, agree entirely. About the only time Fang shows any kind of anything more than an "enthusiastic" passing interest is if a neighbour's cat happens to appear on or near the gate or fence.....despite his advancing years, creaking bones and grey muzzle, this event engenders a demonstration of the term "greased lightning". Where people are concerned however he'll bark quite enthusiastically at the gate if a person appears there, but this is more of a vociferous welcome bark with lots of bouncing and chortling, rather than a guarding-type bark (although I don't think many people would wish to intrude to ascertain for themselves which bark it might be! ;) ) But if on the other hand, they are actually IN his yard, he seems to assume that I've let them be there and either follows them around with his long cold nose stuck in all manner of soft warm places or he'll just lay down and assume the sleep position. The Stafford on the other hand is a true representative of his breed and just cannot get enough of people, firmly believing that all humans in his yard are there for his sole entertainment and adoration. When I yelled at the kid to remove itself from my yard, he stood there with a "WHAT, you're sending my new friend away???" look on his face..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I guess I just don't like to take the chance, even if it's only a slim or unlikely one :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 I guess I just don't like to take the chance, even if it's only a slim or unlikely one :). Absolutely understood and appreciated. Have to say though that my dogs are well accustomed to me "telling off" the junior members of the pack (ie the skinkids) and it really doesn't phase them in that way. They're more likely to slink off with an "oh s**t am I next in line" look in most cases than they are to jump on board the discipline train! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♪♫LMBC♫♪ Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Wow. It's a good thing your dogs are happy to see strangers in their yard... Imagine how it would work out for you if they weren't Yes, it wouldn't have been the parents of the child who were at fault . It is his right as a child to go into other's yards and steal. I totally agree! However in the eyes of the law and the anti-dog doogooders if a dog attacked a child in this situation you can get your bottom dollar it would be the dog and the owner who are at fault with the dog being PTS Nope. Read the law. A dog that attacks in its own backyard is not generally held to be at fault. Just did a quick check on this and from what I could see the law in Tasmania doesn't differentiate between a dog bite in public or a dog bite on private property specifically. It does however say that a dog is not considered to be "rushing or chasing" if confined securely behind a fence but the laws given for actual bites don't seem to make any distinction between public or private property. Kind of ambiguous really... We had a similar issue with a child approaching the side of my yard and wanting to pat my two (security) dogs who were barking loudly at him. Dogs where securely confined to my back yard and the child came in through my unfenced front yard and then down the side of my house about 2 or 3 metres and was about to put his hand in a small gap to pat the dogs ... while mum stood on the front footpath waiting for him. Thankfully I was home at the time (normally I would be at work) and was heading out the front door when I heard them barking - as I came out the front door when I saw the child heading down the side of the house and mum stated "its ok, he just wants to pat the dogs". I don't know any idiots that would want to pat two large dogs who are going mental ... but obviously mum through it was ok Lets say they where told in no uncertain terms what I thought of the child entering my yard and approaching my dogs (was firm with child but my anger was directed at the mother) ... and then to back it up I contacted the childs school (he was in uniform) and explained the situation and suggested it might be a good idea to contact the RSPCA Education Program ... they got back to me and were very concerned. They apparently regularly have the RSPCA out at the school and would ask them to reinforce no patting unknown dogs without asking, they were going to add a reminder in their newsletter and were going to mention it on their school parade (which I thought was fantastic). We have extensive warnings on the gates and while the gates are padlocked and the yard is secure for the dogs ... there was a smallish gap between the gate post and the gate to allow for the swing of the hinges. A hand through that gap would most likely have resulted in a bite ... and my dogs would could have been declared "dangerous" and even potentially destroyed. We have now restricted the dogs access to that side of the yard and have placed shadecloth on the inside of the gate which blocks the gap without restricting the swing on the gate. After numerous discussions with council - basically if anyone enters my yard (invited or otherwise) and is bitten or if my dogs are on the loose and someone is bitten - the dog would be treated the same. The fact they are secured in my back yard doesn't offer them any protection. You can not be charged if your dog attacks someone while they are on their own property: http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/A/AnimalManA08.pdf (1) It is a defence to a prosecution for an offence against section 194 or 195 for the defendant to prove— (a) the dog attacked, or acted in a way that caused fear to, the other person (the complainant) or the animal— (i) as a result of the dog being attacked, mistreated, provoked or teased by the complainant or the animal; or (ii) to protect the defendant, or a person accompanying the defendant (the accompanying person), or the defendant’s or accompanying person’s property; or Its worded differently to the NSW one but it means the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) You can not be charged if your dog attacks someone while they are on their own property: http://www.legislati...nimalManA08.pdf (1) It is a defence to a prosecution for an offence against section 194 or 195 for the defendant to prove— (a) the dog attacked, or acted in a way that caused fear to, the other person (the complainant) or the animal— (i) as a result of the dog being attacked, mistreated, provoked or teased by the complainant or the animal; or (ii) to protect the defendant, or a person accompanying the defendant (the accompanying person), or the defendant's or accompanying person's property; or Its worded differently to the NSW one but it means the same thing. If I read correctly, this only says items it is a defense when (a)(i) or (a)(ii) occurs. It doesn't guarantee that use of this defense will be successful. In the case that the intruder is a child, I think there's a good chance of being found guilty. also . . . someone needs to play devil's advocate . . . or in this case, child's advocate. Was I the only one here who wandered as a child? Stealing fruit was a big game to us kids. I've never much liked grapes, but some of the gang used to go the fence and risk getting a backside full of buckshot to steal grapes from the person we called 'the Old Frenchman'. We had another neighbour, an older widow, who loved having kids around and told parents it was fine if kids snuck into her garden to steal prunes and apricots. People have gotten much more guarded about their kids in recent decades, and the old tradition of fruit stealing has declined . . . but that doesn't mean it's dead. If you happen to end out having to defend your dog's behaviour before a judge who stole fruit as a child, you may find yourself in trouble. (I thought people were having trouble getting kids to eat fruit these days . . . from one perspective, it's good to know kids will still bother to steal it). see, eg: http://ask.metafilte...-outside-the-UK The tradition of stealing fruit (usually apples) is old enough in the UK that they have a a word for it! As do the Swedes, and the Koreans . . . also, apparently noted and not condemned in the Bible! Deuteronomy 23 sanctions scrumping in a vineyard or field—provided that you don't carry any goods away in a container. The debate has raged about who exactly is allowed to be there in the first place; but once you're there, the principle is this: If the owner denies you handy nourishment and refreshment, he is a greedy swine; but if you attempt to take advantage of him, you are a greedy swine. another google find relates to Darwin . . . In his Autobiography, Darwin (called Charley and Bobby during this time) describes himself as being a rather "naughty" child. This is borne out in his stories of stealing fruit from the orchard trees on the side of his parents' house, making up wild stories, and striving to be the center of attention in the family. Bottom line: If you have guard dogs that might attack a child, I'd recommend having really good liability insurance AND very good, child-proof fences. Edited February 7, 2012 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Why does someone need to play child's advocate? I've said all along the child was welcome to the fruit. Trespassing and entering my securely fenced and locked backyard by way of a fence however is a completely different thing (and placing my dogs in danger by entering their turf without permission is a different thing altogether). Just quietly though, I have a feeling that if somebody was caught trespassing and rocked up to court and said "oh but I was only stealing fruit and didn't YOU steal fruit when you were a kid?" they wouldn't get a warm reception. Child's advocate or otherwise...the child was WRONG to climb the fence and enter my back yard. It placed itself in danger with strange dogs and placed my dogs in danger with a strange child. It stole from me (which is really just a very minor side issue). It could have been injured by falling off the fence or out of a tree and then I would have been liable. And all because it had not been taught a few lessons that other children have drummed into them concerning manners, safety, safety around animals and simple common courtesy. AND, because WHOMEVER was supposed to have been supervising the child at that time, dropped the ball in a big way!! Bottom line. I don't have aggressive dogs, my dogs are raised and well-socialised with children, but I DO object to strangers entering my yard uninvited for ANY reason and I have a right to be upset about that. And I would be EXTREMELY peeved if one of my boys did the same thing to anybody else. Hopefully I have instilled better values in them than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allerzeit Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 When I yelled at the kid to remove itself from my yard, he stood there with a "WHAT, you're sending my new friend away???" look on his face..... That'd be right :laugh: Yes, I can totally picture the look on his face! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Ellz, nothing personal. I'd be surprised if your dogs were among those likely to do harm. Though, if a 5 yr old can climb your fence, I wouldn't consider it very secure. I don't think dog as weapon is a good idea in the modern world, and I think people who choose to leave a big mean dog in the yard to protect their worldly goods are inviting trouble. Educating kids isn't so easy when they watch TV and play computer games for many hours a day, and much of what they hear is bad=good, kids are powerful, go ahead and challenge. You don't have to go as far as Grand Theft Auto and rap music to find this . . . it shows up in cartoons and lots of stuff directed at the pre-teen or young teen kids. How often do you see a kid scaling a fence/wall or doing some sort of break in/tresspass? Have you ever seen one TV show where a kid encounters a dog who puts him in the hospital? There are a lot of naughty kids out there, some of them full blown hoons. Dog owners must be realistic about kids. Sure, sometimes the judiciary takes a tough love attitude toward the bad/naughty kids. But that doesn't guarantee you'll go scott free if your dog attacks a kid who enters your yard. Even if you end out being found not guilty, being brought to court because your dog did major damage to a little bugger who snuck into your yard isn't going to be much fun. Why does someone need to play child's advocate? I've said all along the child was welcome to the fruit. Trespassing and entering my securely fenced and locked backyard by way of a fence however is a completely different thing (and placing my dogs in danger by entering their turf without permission is a different thing altogether). Just quietly though, I have a feeling that if somebody was caught trespassing and rocked up to court and said "oh but I was only stealing fruit and didn't YOU steal fruit when you were a kid?" they wouldn't get a warm reception. Child's advocate or otherwise...the child was WRONG to climb the fence and enter my back yard. It placed itself in danger with strange dogs and placed my dogs in danger with a strange child. It stole from me (which is really just a very minor side issue). It could have been injured by falling off the fence or out of a tree and then I would have been liable. And all because it had not been taught a few lessons that other children have drummed into them concerning manners, safety, safety around animals and simple common courtesy. AND, because WHOMEVER was supposed to have been supervising the child at that time, dropped the ball in a big way!! Bottom line. I don't have aggressive dogs, my dogs are raised and well-socialised with children, but I DO object to strangers entering my yard uninvited for ANY reason and I have a right to be upset about that. And I would be EXTREMELY peeved if one of my boys did the same thing to anybody else. Hopefully I have instilled better values in them than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now