Boxer Breeders Euthanising White Puppies

[wuffles]

Ultimately, it is the breeder's choice whether they wish to euthanise deaf puppies or risk placing that burden onto the community. We are really stuck between a catch 22 situation of "damned if we do" or "Damned if we don't". We get howled down for producing puppies with issues that may not have been forseen or helped, and we also get howled down if we decide to euthanise these puppies and be responsible for the animals we breed.

Well said!

I don't think that's what this thread was ever about, even though a few people have mentioned it... it was about euthanising WHITE puppies. Euthanising DEAF puppies would be a different topic.

[Dame Aussie]

This is true there is no evidence that white boxers are any less healthy and very few white boxers which come from flashy flahy matings are deaf. Most white boxers which come from white x flashy or white x white are deaf.

There is evidence that animals and people with unpigmented areas are more prone to cancer or burning on those areas. That is because one of the purposes of pigment is to deal with ultraviolet rays. Pigments have multi-purposes some of which are yet to be understood.

No evidence, but my personal expereince indicates that extreme white dogs are a little more conatct allergy prone as well. A bit itchy.

Extreme white is a really artificial thing to breed for because nature rarely produces extreme white land animals. If the mutation was advantageous in any possible way, we would probably see more extreme white animals because nature is ruthlessly efficient and it is easier for a life-form to produce no pigment than to produce pigment..

I would agree with this too, I can only go by my experience of course, but IME all or mostly white dogs have been much more susceptible to being itchy/allergic.

[Steve]

This is true there is no evidence that white boxers are any less healthy and very few white boxers which come from flashy flahy matings are deaf. Most white boxers which come from white x flashy or white x white are deaf.

There is evidence that animals and people with unpigmented areas are more prone to cancer or burning on those areas. That is because one of the purposes of pigment is to deal with ultraviolet rays. Pigments have multi-purposes some of which are yet to be understood.

No evidence, but my personal expereince indicates that extreme white dogs are a little more conatct allergy prone as well. A bit itchy.

Extreme white is a really artificial thing to breed for because nature rarely produces extreme white land animals. If the mutation was advantageous in any possible way, we would probably see more extreme white animals because nature is ruthlessly efficient and it is easier for a life-form to produce no pigment than to produce pigment..

Many flashy boxers have limited pigment and I have seen many which have less dark pigment on their face and skin than some whites Ive seen.

Ive never found white boxers to be any less healthy in anyway which come from flashy flashy parents, no increase in skin conditions etc than any other boxer. Ive never known the white spotting gene to show as only white without some kind of marking in boxers

[Clemevi]

No not true, no one cares about a throw back etc - the white spotting gene is what makes a flashy boxer look stunning, gives it the socks and white markings on its face.

In some countries only flashy can be shown.

Hi Steve

Can you please let me know what countries only allow flashy Boxers to be shown? I have never heard of that! In some countries you will find it very hard to get your plain dog recognised in the ring but I don't think they can't be shown.

Thanks

Edited March 28, 2012 by Clemevi

[nawnim]

...

Edited June 9, 2012 by padraic

[Clemevi]

I'm growing weary of the flashy coloured boxers. My first boxer was born in 1963 and at that time flashy markings were not popular. They became popular in the seventies. If I was to get another boxer (which is most unlikely) it would be a solid coloured red bitch with a rich copper coat that would shine in the sun. I can see her now. So beautiful! The way boxer breeding is going will solid coloured boxers become a rarity or even extinct?

Never Padraic!! Always get plains in litters unless you breed a flashy to white or a plain to white! A lot more plain Boxers being shown these days too!

Edited to say I shouldn't really call them plain but classic or solid!

Edited March 28, 2012 by Clemevi

[OSoSwift]

I am guessing the reason white, split face of dogs with White heads in Whippets don't have an issues with deafness - as far as I know - is due to the genetics behind the White? There are plenty of WHippets with such marking who are not deaf.

A friend of mine has a Black Brindle Stafford who is deaf and does not have ear canals except fo the first little bit on one and a few cms of length on the other. She has just got her CCD title and an Agility and Jumpers Novice pass.

I have seen many White Boxers down here, only one had pinky looking eyes and no pigment she could hear but was an odd, over reactive little dog so I am thinking something was amiss. The others have all had good pigment dark noses and eye rims and have been reasonable healthy.

[Greytmate]

I am guessing the reason white, split face of dogs with White heads in Whippets don't have an issues with deafness - as far as I know - is due to the genetics behind the White? There are plenty of WHippets with such marking who are not deaf.

No, same genetics. If you had a whippet that was mostly white, you wouldn't want to breed it to another mostly white or extreme white. Some whippets may be unilaterally deaf and maybe you wouldn't know unless you had it tested.

[LizT]

Do these predominantly white dogs who suffer skin complaints include tumours?

I've seen a number of mostly white Staffys over the years, with horrrible lumps on their underside and ribcage areas.

[Greytmate]

Do these predominantly white dogs who suffer skin complaints include tumours?

I've seen a number of mostly white Staffys over the years, with horrrible lumps on their underside and ribcage areas.

I have already answered that.

Here is the evidence.

Long-term exposure to UV light allows skin

tumours such as squamous cell carcinoma to

develop in animals, particularly in areas that lack

protective pigment. Any patches of white skin

or non-pigmented mucous membranes can be

affected, for example the nasal planum, lips, periocuar skin or ventral abdomen. Early sun-induced

changes such as erythema, hair loss or scaling may

be mistaken for inflammatory lesions, but if left

untreated these will progress to squamous cell carcinoma (Chapter 4, Figs 4.6–4.8).

From -

Small Animal Oncology Joanna Morris Formerly of Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge Veterinary School and Jane Dobson Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge Veterinary School

There is probably more evidence, but you can google that yourself.

[Salukifan]

I am guessing the reason white, split face of dogs with White heads in Whippets don't have an issues with deafness - as far as I know - is due to the genetics behind the White? There are plenty of WHippets with such marking who are not deaf.

No, same genetics. If you had a whippet that was mostly white, you wouldn't want to breed it to another mostly white or extreme white. Some whippets may be unilaterally deaf and maybe you wouldn't know unless you had it tested.

I have been told that breeding parti-colour to parti-colour Whippets can result in Whippets with a lot of white that are deaf.

[OSoSwift]

I am guessing the reason white, split face of dogs with White heads in Whippets don't have an issues with deafness - as far as I know - is due to the genetics behind the White? There are plenty of WHippets with such marking who are not deaf.

No, same genetics. If you had a whippet that was mostly white, you wouldn't want to breed it to another mostly white or extreme white. Some whippets may be unilaterally deaf and maybe you wouldn't know unless you had it tested.

I have been told that breeding parti-colour to parti-colour Whippets can result in Whippets with a lot of white that are deaf.

Interesting I will check it out. I personally am not fussed on predominately Whippets, so no dramas for me there but yep will go off to investigate some more.

[3amigos]

I don't even know what we are arguing anymore. My point was I don't agree with euthanising pups because they COULD be deaf when the reality is they may be perfectly fine. My breeder didn't know if my girl would be deaf or not, but she gave her a chance, and I am very grateful that she did (she was from two normally marked parents).

I don't know if i'm entering this right if not pls forgive me. I agree with your veiw. Boxers can come with lots of different problems and as a breed you either love them or not. I love them and have never picked a boxer on colour its which ever one steels my heart the most

[Sheridan]

Question: if breeders know which mix of boxer colours will produce a white boxer, why do it? It's clearly not just BYBs or puppyfarmers producing potentially deaf boxers.

[Silvawilow]

Ultimately, it is the breeder's choice whether they wish to euthanise deaf puppies or risk placing that burden onto the community. We are really stuck between a catch 22 situation of "damned if we do" or "Damned if we don't". We get howled down for producing puppies with issues that may not have been forseen or helped, and we also get howled down if we decide to euthanise these puppies and be responsible for the animals we breed.

Well said!

I don't think that's what this thread was ever about, even though a few people have mentioned it... it was about euthanising WHITE puppies. Euthanising DEAF puppies would be a different topic.

Apologies Wuffles, perhaps I didn't edit the quoted post enough ;) I was applauding the comment regarding "damned if you do, damned if you don't" :) IMO if a breeder does not feel confortable with placing a WHITE puppy that could potenitally be deaf, skin issues, cancer and chooses to euthanise that puppy then that's their own choice and should not be taken away by some animal liberation types. Likewise if they choose to place the puppy and explain ALL the potential health problems then that's also their choice.

[dog_fan]

Question: if breeders know which mix of boxer colours will produce a white boxer, why do it? It's clearly not just BYBs or puppyfarmers producing potentially deaf boxers.

I would also like to know this.

[LizT]

Do these predominantly white dogs who suffer skin complaints include tumours?

I've seen a number of mostly white Staffys over the years, with horrrible lumps on their underside and ribcage areas.

I have already answered that.

Here is the evidence.

Long-term exposure to UV light allows skin

tumours such as squamous cell carcinoma to

develop in animals, particularly in areas that lack

protective pigment. Any patches of white skin

or non-pigmented mucous membranes can be

affected, for example the nasal planum, lips, periocuar skin or ventral abdomen. Early sun-induced

changes such as erythema, hair loss or scaling may

be mistaken for inflammatory lesions, but if left

untreated these will progress to squamous cell carcinoma (Chapter 4, Figs 4.6–4.8).

From -

Small Animal Oncology Joanna Morris Formerly of Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge Veterinary School and Jane Dobson Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge Veterinary School

There is probably more evidence, but you can google that yourself.

Thanks Greytmate.

Many years ago I had a ginger and white cat, certainly not predominate white, but white on face and legs. He developed a cancer under his lower eyelid. I hear this can even happen to indoor cats who sit in windows.

[pepe001]

To Dog Fan and Sheridan, Beacuse it gives them more chance of producing a show quality flashy boxer (ie lots of white but not too much). When you breed for that one special dog/horse/cat/cow whatever you are accepting that the rest may not be perfect and may require culling. Like race horses - how many thoroughbreds are bred to produce that one Black Cavier. They just don't factor in.

[Crisovar]

Not all Boxer breeders breed for flashy markings, they simply accept that if they do get that one standout pup that has it all plus some flashy chrome then it is a bonus. Personally I prefer a plain black mask, with fully pigmented dark eyes, it all comes down to personal taste. Many dogs in the ring are borderline mismarks due to the amount of chrome.

[Sheridan]

To Dog Fan and Sheridan, Beacuse it gives them more chance of producing a show quality flashy boxer (ie lots of white but not too much). When you breed for that one special dog/horse/cat/cow whatever you are accepting that the rest may not be perfect and may require culling. Like race horses - how many thoroughbreds are bred to produce that one Black Cavier. They just don't factor in.

Ah, breeding for the show ring. Of course.