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grumpette

Any News On Ned Please?

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kermac   

I came across this forum by chance, and joined up so I could fill in a little background detail on Ned. I'm afraid it is likely to be rather long.

My wife and I are experienced dog owners, all with medium to large dogs. We live in a lovely little village in southern NSW about an hour out of Canberra.

A friend brought to our attention the ad for a Gordon Setter called Ned seeking rehoming, so although we didn't feel our 4 y.o. Gordon named Dougal needed company - he's very self-sufficient, even a little autistic - we thought we would give Ned a try so he could see out his days in happiness and comfort.

We phoned the owner on the other side of Queanbeyan and quickly found out Ned was an escapologist, but took Dougie along to meet him anyway. They were pretty indifferent to each other, but not actively hostile. We saw that Ned had been chained to a run - which he hated - as he was able to easily clear the 3 ft rural fencing around the owner's property. Our fencing is 4 ft high, although still rural (hinge joint and steel posts), and had always contained Dougal with no problems. After some thought we agreed to take Ned on the understanding that if our fencing wasn't able to contain him we would bring him back within two weeks as we are close to a main road and we weren't prepared to replace the fencing right around the house.

As soon as we got them into the back of the wagon, Ned began to attack Dougal who responded by clawing his way into the front seat to get away from him.

We got them home, and over the next week or so on several occasions Ned monstered Dougie who was doing nothing to provoke him at all, in fact going out of his way to be submissive. It generally happened at feeding time, so we separated them when they were eating and that reduced the rate of attacks by Ned. Dougal was so terrified of Ned that he refused to go into his quarters at night (a heated outdoor laundry), preferring to sleep out in the frost than to go anywhere near Ned who by this stage had colonised all Dougie's bedding as well as his own.

Then one evening there was a terrific hullabaloo outside and Dougie was lying on his back whimpering while Ned stood on top of him apparently trying to make a meal of his throat. There was surprisingly little blood.

We deployed every strategy we could think of and they seemed to be coming to terms with each other (or perhaps more accurately, Ned was coming to terms with Dougie). They were going on walks quite amiably together, strolling down the country lanes like old mates. Ned spent a lot of time worming his way through the fences alongside the road, but showed no interest in the stock. Dougal as usual showed no interest in the fences.

Then around the middle of the second week, Ned discovered the fence around the garden and within seconds he was out. From that point he had to be kept either in the house or tied up so we rang the previous owner and said that most regrettably we would have to bring Ned back. We had grown quite fond of him, and feel he would over time have settled Dougal down - he's very immature for 4, and still inclined to be a bit silly. He also has a habit of nipping strangers on the bum (which many don't take to very kindly), and unless kept on a very short leash around small children is inclined to lunge at them in a way that terrified them.

I should have used the past tense when talking about our lovely Dougie because a few days after Ned left us, Dougal for the first time in his life found his way through a fence on his daily walk and massacred a newborn lamb before my wife was able to get to him. He was immediately taken to the vet and put down painlessly. There are no other options in sheep country apart from a bullet.

I don't know if he picked up this little trick from Ned, and we don't hold Ned responsible. It may just be an appalling coincidence.

We truly hope Ned finds a good home and spends his last few years in comfort and contentment, bringing joy to people like us. They will need first-class fences and probably an absence of other animals. He seemed in our short acquaintance to be good with adults and children, as well as smart and sensible.

Vale Dougal. We had the best of times

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I came across this forum by chance, and joined up so I could fill in a little background detail on Ned. I'm afraid it is likely to be rather long.

My wife and I are experienced dog owners, all with medium to large dogs. We live in a lovely little village in southern NSW about an hour out of Canberra.

A friend brought to our attention the ad for a Gordon Setter called Ned seeking rehoming, so although we didn't feel our 4 y.o. Gordon named Dougal needed company - he's very self-sufficient, even a little autistic - we thought we would give Ned a try so he could see out his days in happiness and comfort.

We phoned the owner on the other side of Queanbeyan and quickly found out Ned was an escapologist, but took Dougie along to meet him anyway. They were pretty indifferent to each other, but not actively hostile. We saw that Ned had been chained to a run - which he hated - as he was able to easily clear the 3 ft rural fencing around the owner's property. Our fencing is 4 ft high, although still rural (hinge joint and steel posts), and had always contained Dougal with no problems. After some thought we agreed to take Ned on the understanding that if our fencing wasn't able to contain him we would bring him back within two weeks as we are close to a main road and we weren't prepared to replace the fencing right around the house.

As soon as we got them into the back of the wagon, Ned began to attack Dougal who responded by clawing his way into the front seat to get away from him.

We got them home, and over the next week or so on several occasions Ned monstered Dougie who was doing nothing to provoke him at all, in fact going out of his way to be submissive. It generally happened at feeding time, so we separated them when they were eating and that reduced the rate of attacks by Ned. Dougal was so terrified of Ned that he refused to go into his quarters at night (a heated outdoor laundry), preferring to sleep out in the frost than to go anywhere near Ned who by this stage had colonised all Dougie's bedding as well as his own.

Then one evening there was a terrific hullabaloo outside and Dougie was lying on his back whimpering while Ned stood on top of him apparently trying to make a meal of his throat. There was surprisingly little blood.

We deployed every strategy we could think of and they seemed to be coming to terms with each other (or perhaps more accurately, Ned was coming to terms with Dougie). They were going on walks quite amiably together, strolling down the country lanes like old mates. Ned spent a lot of time worming his way through the fences alongside the road, but showed no interest in the stock. Dougal as usual showed no interest in the fences.

Then around the middle of the second week, Ned discovered the fence around the garden and within seconds he was out. From that point he had to be kept either in the house or tied up so we rang the previous owner and said that most regrettably we would have to bring Ned back. We had grown quite fond of him, and feel he would over time have settled Dougal down - he's very immature for 4, and still inclined to be a bit silly. He also has a habit of nipping strangers on the bum (which many don't take to very kindly), and unless kept on a very short leash around small children is inclined to lunge at them in a way that terrified them.

I should have used the past tense when talking about our lovely Dougie because a few days after Ned left us, Dougal for the first time in his life found his way through a fence on his daily walk and massacred a newborn lamb before my wife was able to get to him. He was immediately taken to the vet and put down painlessly. There are no other options in sheep country apart from a bullet.

I don't know if he picked up this little trick from Ned, and we don't hold Ned responsible. It may just be an appalling coincidence.

We truly hope Ned finds a good home and spends his last few years in comfort and contentment, bringing joy to people like us. They will need first-class fences and probably an absence of other animals. He seemed in our short acquaintance to be good with adults and children, as well as smart and sensible.

Vale Dougal. We had the best of times

All I can say is my heart goes out to you and your family for the tragic loss of Dougal :cry:

Maree

CPR

Canberra Pooch Rescue

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nawnim   

I came across this forum by chance, and joined up so I could fill in a little background detail on Ned. I'm afraid it is likely to be rather long.

My wife and I are experienced dog owners, all with medium to large dogs. We live in a lovely little village in southern NSW about an hour out of Canberra.

A friend brought to our attention the ad for a Gordon Setter called Ned seeking rehoming, so although we didn't feel our 4 y.o. Gordon named Dougal needed company - he's very self-sufficient, even a little autistic - we thought we would give Ned a try so he could see out his days in happiness and comfort.

We phoned the owner on the other side of Queanbeyan and quickly found out Ned was an escapologist, but took Dougie along to meet him anyway. They were pretty indifferent to each other, but not actively hostile. We saw that Ned had been chained to a run - which he hated - as he was able to easily clear the 3 ft rural fencing around the owner's property. Our fencing is 4 ft high, although still rural (hinge joint and steel posts), and had always contained Dougal with no problems. After some thought we agreed to take Ned on the understanding that if our fencing wasn't able to contain him we would bring him back within two weeks as we are close to a main road and we weren't prepared to replace the fencing right around the house.

As soon as we got them into the back of the wagon, Ned began to attack Dougal who responded by clawing his way into the front seat to get away from him.

We got them home, and over the next week or so on several occasions Ned monstered Dougie who was doing nothing to provoke him at all, in fact going out of his way to be submissive. It generally happened at feeding time, so we separated them when they were eating and that reduced the rate of attacks by Ned. Dougal was so terrified of Ned that he refused to go into his quarters at night (a heated outdoor laundry), preferring to sleep out in the frost than to go anywhere near Ned who by this stage had colonised all Dougie's bedding as well as his own.

Then one evening there was a terrific hullabaloo outside and Dougie was lying on his back whimpering while Ned stood on top of him apparently trying to make a meal of his throat. There was surprisingly little blood.

We deployed every strategy we could think of and they seemed to be coming to terms with each other (or perhaps more accurately, Ned was coming to terms with Dougie). They were going on walks quite amiably together, strolling down the country lanes like old mates. Ned spent a lot of time worming his way through the fences alongside the road, but showed no interest in the stock. Dougal as usual showed no interest in the fences.

Then around the middle of the second week, Ned discovered the fence around the garden and within seconds he was out. From that point he had to be kept either in the house or tied up so we rang the previous owner and said that most regrettably we would have to bring Ned back. We had grown quite fond of him, and feel he would over time have settled Dougal down - he's very immature for 4, and still inclined to be a bit silly. He also has a habit of nipping strangers on the bum (which many don't take to very kindly), and unless kept on a very short leash around small children is inclined to lunge at them in a way that terrified them.

I should have used the past tense when talking about our lovely Dougie because a few days after Ned left us, Dougal for the first time in his life found his way through a fence on his daily walk and massacred a newborn lamb before my wife was able to get to him. He was immediately taken to the vet and put down painlessly. There are no other options in sheep country apart from a bullet.

I don't know if he picked up this little trick from Ned, and we don't hold Ned responsible. It may just be an appalling coincidence.

We truly hope Ned finds a good home and spends his last few years in comfort and contentment, bringing joy to people like us. They will need first-class fences and probably an absence of other animals. He seemed in our short acquaintance to be good with adults and children, as well as smart and sensible.

Vale Dougal. We had the best of times

Thankyou for sharing this with us and I'm very sorry for your loss. Take care. You must be going through a difficult time.

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efowler   

I came across this forum by chance, and joined up so I could fill in a little background detail on Ned. I'm afraid it is likely to be rather long.

My wife and I are experienced dog owners, all with medium to large dogs. We live in a lovely little village in southern NSW about an hour out of Canberra.

A friend brought to our attention the ad for a Gordon Setter called Ned seeking rehoming, so although we didn't feel our 4 y.o. Gordon named Dougal needed company - he's very self-sufficient, even a little autistic - we thought we would give Ned a try so he could see out his days in happiness and comfort.

We phoned the owner on the other side of Queanbeyan and quickly found out Ned was an escapologist, but took Dougie along to meet him anyway. They were pretty indifferent to each other, but not actively hostile. We saw that Ned had been chained to a run - which he hated - as he was able to easily clear the 3 ft rural fencing around the owner's property. Our fencing is 4 ft high, although still rural (hinge joint and steel posts), and had always contained Dougal with no problems. After some thought we agreed to take Ned on the understanding that if our fencing wasn't able to contain him we would bring him back within two weeks as we are close to a main road and we weren't prepared to replace the fencing right around the house.

As soon as we got them into the back of the wagon, Ned began to attack Dougal who responded by clawing his way into the front seat to get away from him.

We got them home, and over the next week or so on several occasions Ned monstered Dougie who was doing nothing to provoke him at all, in fact going out of his way to be submissive. It generally happened at feeding time, so we separated them when they were eating and that reduced the rate of attacks by Ned. Dougal was so terrified of Ned that he refused to go into his quarters at night (a heated outdoor laundry), preferring to sleep out in the frost than to go anywhere near Ned who by this stage had colonised all Dougie's bedding as well as his own.

Then one evening there was a terrific hullabaloo outside and Dougie was lying on his back whimpering while Ned stood on top of him apparently trying to make a meal of his throat. There was surprisingly little blood.

We deployed every strategy we could think of and they seemed to be coming to terms with each other (or perhaps more accurately, Ned was coming to terms with Dougie). They were going on walks quite amiably together, strolling down the country lanes like old mates. Ned spent a lot of time worming his way through the fences alongside the road, but showed no interest in the stock. Dougal as usual showed no interest in the fences.

Then around the middle of the second week, Ned discovered the fence around the garden and within seconds he was out. From that point he had to be kept either in the house or tied up so we rang the previous owner and said that most regrettably we would have to bring Ned back. We had grown quite fond of him, and feel he would over time have settled Dougal down - he's very immature for 4, and still inclined to be a bit silly. He also has a habit of nipping strangers on the bum (which many don't take to very kindly), and unless kept on a very short leash around small children is inclined to lunge at them in a way that terrified them.

I should have used the past tense when talking about our lovely Dougie because a few days after Ned left us, Dougal for the first time in his life found his way through a fence on his daily walk and massacred a newborn lamb before my wife was able to get to him. He was immediately taken to the vet and put down painlessly. There are no other options in sheep country apart from a bullet.

I don't know if he picked up this little trick from Ned, and we don't hold Ned responsible. It may just be an appalling coincidence.

We truly hope Ned finds a good home and spends his last few years in comfort and contentment, bringing joy to people like us. They will need first-class fences and probably an absence of other animals. He seemed in our short acquaintance to be good with adults and children, as well as smart and sensible.

Vale Dougal. We had the best of times

Very sorry for your loss.

Since getting Ned into care we have treated him like any other dog rescued from the pound with an unknown history. There were many stories going around from his owners beforehand and we can never really find the truth.

Since being in care he has been assessed by 3 experienced people and we have seen no issues whatsoever. One thing that has been obvious is that he is great with every dog he has met.

But as Maree has said previously, a dog can behave differently in any different environment.

Ned will be leaving today to live with a GS owner who knows all that has been written on here and as much as we know. She has appropraite facilities to seperate Ned for slow introductions and fingers crossed he can live the rest of his life there in peace.

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Guest donatella   
Guest donatella

Has to be said, poor Dougal, not saying anymore :banghead:

touche!

I didn't get much a feel of remorse for poor Dougals passing either.

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Has to be said, poor Dougal, not saying anymore :banghead:

touche!

I didn't get much a feel of remorse for poor Dougals passing either.

Just because they didn't write it doesn't mean they didn't feel it.

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Guest donatella   
Guest donatella

Has to be said, poor Dougal, not saying anymore :banghead:

touche!

I didn't get much a feel of remorse for poor Dougals passing either.

Just because they didn't write it doesn't mean they didn't feel it.

Sure, I agree. But poor Dougal was taken to be put down immediately for killing a lamb (instinctual for many a breed) when he could have been surrendered to rescue and placed in a home without small animals or livestock no? Pretty harsh sentence tbh for people who really cared for their dog.

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Guest lavendergirl   
Guest lavendergirl

I came across this forum by chance, and joined up so I could fill in a little background detail on Ned. I'm afraid it is likely to be rather long.

My wife and I are experienced dog owners, all with medium to large dogs. We live in a lovely little village in southern NSW about an hour out of Canberra.

A friend brought to our attention the ad for a Gordon Setter called Ned seeking rehoming, so although we didn't feel our 4 y.o. Gordon named Dougal needed company - he's very self-sufficient, even a little autistic - we thought we would give Ned a try so he could see out his days in happiness and comfort.

We phoned the owner on the other side of Queanbeyan and quickly found out Ned was an escapologist, but took Dougie along to meet him anyway. They were pretty indifferent to each other, but not actively hostile. We saw that Ned had been chained to a run - which he hated - as he was able to easily clear the 3 ft rural fencing around the owner's property. Our fencing is 4 ft high, although still rural (hinge joint and steel posts), and had always contained Dougal with no problems. After some thought we agreed to take Ned on the understanding that if our fencing wasn't able to contain him we would bring him back within two weeks as we are close to a main road and we weren't prepared to replace the fencing right around the house.

As soon as we got them into the back of the wagon, Ned began to attack Dougal who responded by clawing his way into the front seat to get away from him.

We got them home, and over the next week or so on several occasions Ned monstered Dougie who was doing nothing to provoke him at all, in fact going out of his way to be submissive. It generally happened at feeding time, so we separated them when they were eating and that reduced the rate of attacks by Ned. Dougal was so terrified of Ned that he refused to go into his quarters at night (a heated outdoor laundry), preferring to sleep out in the frost than to go anywhere near Ned who by this stage had colonised all Dougie's bedding as well as his own.

Then one evening there was a terrific hullabaloo outside and Dougie was lying on his back whimpering while Ned stood on top of him apparently trying to make a meal of his throat. There was surprisingly little blood.

We deployed every strategy we could think of and they seemed to be coming to terms with each other (or perhaps more accurately, Ned was coming to terms with Dougie). They were going on walks quite amiably together, strolling down the country lanes like old mates. Ned spent a lot of time worming his way through the fences alongside the road, but showed no interest in the stock. Dougal as usual showed no interest in the fences.

Then around the middle of the second week, Ned discovered the fence around the garden and within seconds he was out. From that point he had to be kept either in the house or tied up so we rang the previous owner and said that most regrettably we would have to bring Ned back. We had grown quite fond of him, and feel he would over time have settled Dougal down - he's very immature for 4, and still inclined to be a bit silly. He also has a habit of nipping strangers on the bum (which many don't take to very kindly), and unless kept on a very short leash around small children is inclined to lunge at them in a way that terrified them.

I should have used the past tense when talking about our lovely Dougie because a few days after Ned left us, Dougal for the first time in his life found his way through a fence on his daily walk and massacred a newborn lamb before my wife was able to get to him. He was immediately taken to the vet and put down painlessly. There are no other options in sheep country apart from a bullet.

I don't know if he picked up this little trick from Ned, and we don't hold Ned responsible. It may just be an appalling coincidence.

We truly hope Ned finds a good home and spends his last few years in comfort and contentment, bringing joy to people like us. They will need first-class fences and probably an absence of other animals. He seemed in our short acquaintance to be good with adults and children, as well as smart and sensible.

Vale Dougal. We had the best of times

Very sorry that this happened to poor Dougal and that he had such a bad time with Ned - I am sure that you wish you had returned Ned a lot sooner. Thank you for sharing some of the background to this story.

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Why persevere with a dog who attacked yours more than once? Gah! Your first obligation should have been to protect your own dog. Poor Dougal.

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Paganman   

Ned spent a lot of time worming his way through the fences alongside the road, but showed no interest in the stock.

Why did you let him do this? Why not keep him on a leash? Ive lived in the country and theres no way id let one of my dogs go through fences onto other peoples property. A dog can be shot just for being anywhere near stock it doesnt have to kill them.

Sorry for the loss of Dougal but you must have known if Ned was allowed to do it the other dog might copy.

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pepe001   

Sorry maybe I am a little silly but when did this Dougal incident occur. I have been reading the thread since the start but I am confused. Did the original owner who posted at the start about Ned needing a new home due to being left at home too long without company already attempt to re-homne to these people with Dougal and then Ned went back to owner. Then Ned taken to pound, then DOL person get him out which didn't work out, then she surrendered to foster, then foster rehomed - which is where he is now. Or am I totally wrong. Not that it really matters but if I am confused so must others and I just would like to know the complete story.

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Guest lavendergirl   
Guest lavendergirl

Sorry maybe I am a little silly but when did this Dougal incident occur. I have been reading the thread since the start but I am confused. Did the original owner who posted at the start about Ned needing a new home due to being left at home too long without company already attempt to re-homne to these people with Dougal and then Ned went back to owner. Then Ned taken to pound, then DOL person get him out which didn't work out, then she surrendered to foster, then foster rehomed - which is where he is now. Or am I totally wrong. Not that it really matters but if I am confused so must others and I just would like to know the complete story.

That is correct as far as I understand. :)

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efowler   

Sorry maybe I am a little silly but when did this Dougal incident occur. I have been reading the thread since the start but I am confused. Did the original owner who posted at the start about Ned needing a new home due to being left at home too long without company already attempt to re-homne to these people with Dougal and then Ned went back to owner. Then Ned taken to pound, then DOL person get him out which didn't work out, then she surrendered to foster, then foster rehomed - which is where he is now. Or am I totally wrong. Not that it really matters but if I am confused so must others and I just would like to know the complete story.

I am confused too Pepe001 and im sure we will never know his complete history, other than the 11 years of vetwork paperwork I have.

As far as I know he was surrendered to Queanbeayan Pound, Mixeduppup adopted him, surrendered him to me and I am rehoming him.

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kermac   

Why persevere with a dog who attacked yours more than once? Gah! Your first obligation should have been to protect your own dog. Poor Dougal.

I guess if we weren't inclined to persist with Ned we wouldn't even have got out of the owner's driveway with him

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kermac   

I came across this forum by chance, and joined up so I could fill in a little background detail on Ned. I'm afraid it is likely to be rather long.

My wife and I are experienced dog owners, all with medium to large dogs. We live in a lovely little village in southern NSW about an hour out of Canberra.

A friend brought to our attention the ad for a Gordon Setter called Ned seeking rehoming, so although we didn't feel our 4 y.o. Gordon named Dougal needed company - he's very self-sufficient, even a little autistic - we thought we would give Ned a try so he could see out his days in happiness and comfort.

We phoned the owner on the other side of Queanbeyan and quickly found out Ned was an escapologist, but took Dougie along to meet him anyway. They were pretty indifferent to each other, but not actively hostile. We saw that Ned had been chained to a run - which he hated - as he was able to easily clear the 3 ft rural fencing around the owner's property. Our fencing is 4 ft high, although still rural (hinge joint and steel posts), and had always contained Dougal with no problems. After some thought we agreed to take Ned on the understanding that if our fencing wasn't able to contain him we would bring him back within two weeks as we are close to a main road and we weren't prepared to replace the fencing right around the house.

As soon as we got them into the back of the wagon, Ned began to attack Dougal who responded by clawing his way into the front seat to get away from him.

We got them home, and over the next week or so on several occasions Ned monstered Dougie who was doing nothing to provoke him at all, in fact going out of his way to be submissive. It generally happened at feeding time, so we separated them when they were eating and that reduced the rate of attacks by Ned. Dougal was so terrified of Ned that he refused to go into his quarters at night (a heated outdoor laundry), preferring to sleep out in the frost than to go anywhere near Ned who by this stage had colonised all Dougie's bedding as well as his own.

Then one evening there was a terrific hullabaloo outside and Dougie was lying on his back whimpering while Ned stood on top of him apparently trying to make a meal of his throat. There was surprisingly little blood.

We deployed every strategy we could think of and they seemed to be coming to terms with each other (or perhaps more accurately, Ned was coming to terms with Dougie). They were going on walks quite amiably together, strolling down the country lanes like old mates. Ned spent a lot of time worming his way through the fences alongside the road, but showed no interest in the stock. Dougal as usual showed no interest in the fences.

Then around the middle of the second week, Ned discovered the fence around the garden and within seconds he was out. From that point he had to be kept either in the house or tied up so we rang the previous owner and said that most regrettably we would have to bring Ned back. We had grown quite fond of him, and feel he would over time have settled Dougal down - he's very immature for 4, and still inclined to be a bit silly. He also has a habit of nipping strangers on the bum (which many don't take to very kindly), and unless kept on a very short leash around small children is inclined to lunge at them in a way that terrified them.

I should have used the past tense when talking about our lovely Dougie because a few days after Ned left us, Dougal for the first time in his life found his way through a fence on his daily walk and massacred a newborn lamb before my wife was able to get to him. He was immediately taken to the vet and put down painlessly. There are no other options in sheep country apart from a bullet.

I don't know if he picked up this little trick from Ned, and we don't hold Ned responsible. It may just be an appalling coincidence.

We truly hope Ned finds a good home and spends his last few years in comfort and contentment, bringing joy to people like us. They will need first-class fences and probably an absence of other animals. He seemed in our short acquaintance to be good with adults and children, as well as smart and sensible.

Vale Dougal. We had the best of times

Very sorry for your loss.

Since getting Ned into care we have treated him like any other dog rescued from the pound with an unknown history. There were many stories going around from his owners beforehand and we can never really find the truth.

Since being in care he has been assessed by 3 experienced people and we have seen no issues whatsoever. One thing that has been obvious is that he is great with every dog he has met.

But as Maree has said previously, a dog can behave differently in any different environment.

Ned will be leaving today to live with a GS owner who knows all that has been written on here and as much as we know. She has appropraite facilities to seperate Ned for slow introductions and fingers crossed he can live the rest of his life there in peace.

I'm delighted Ned has found a new home, and even more so that the new owner is aware of his recent past. It may be quite atypical in the context of the previous 11 years.

While I don't pick up from some of the other comments responding to my post any real sense of appreciation of what I was trying to convey, it would have been irresponsible of me not to convey it. Our short experience of him was that he was not merely aggressive but vicious towards the resident dog, and that he was able to let himself out of the garden any time he chose. As I had no certain knowledge of his feelings about strangers in his new strange land, I could not rule out the possibility he would attack someone. If this had been a child, given his size and strength it could have led to a serious mauling or even death.

Put your hands up all those who would have sat on this information and told no one

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