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What Is A Purebred?

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I purchased a PUREBRED Japanese Spitz from a breeder who lives down the road from me, her breeding dogs are registered but she hasn't bothered with a prefix, when I posted as much....a couple of posters were adamant that my JS is not a purebred :wave:. How'zat? Both his parents AND grandparents have pedigrees YET some people have deemed him NOT a purebred because he didn't come with papers?? I had a chuckle after reading those posts, still makes me chuckle to think that someone implied there could have been anything in his background including cocker spaniel, hahahahahaha. Go figure.....

No need to chuckle. If the dog's breeder is not prepared to sign her name to an official document (from a registering body) to certify who the parents are, there is always going to be doubt as to which dogs really are the parents. I wouldn't be making any claims about the dog other than it is Japanese Spitz. Without papers, you won't be breeding on with it anyway, so it doesn't matter to anyone else whether your dog is purebred or not.

That's true enough, I have no intentions to breed him so therefore I will be having him neutered in a couple of mths. I have no doubt about his parentage even though the breeder does not hold a prefix, I truly believe that the dogs that were presented to me as his parents are indeed his parents. The same could be said of pups that come from a registered breeder with a prefix....especially large scale registered breeders; as you can imagine there are dodgy breeders everywhere so therefore obtaining a pup with papers is not always foolproof that the parents named on the pedigree are indeed its parents.

I purchased a PUREBRED Japanese Spitz from a breeder who lives down the road from me, her breeding dogs are registered but she hasn't bothered with a prefix, when I posted as much....a couple of posters were adamant that my JS is not a purebred :wave:. How'zat? Both his parents AND grandparents have pedigrees YET some people have deemed him NOT a purebred because he didn't come with papers?? I had a chuckle after reading those posts, still makes me chuckle to think that someone implied there could have been anything in his background including cocker spaniel, hahahahahaha. Go figure.....

Thats a real worry that a breeder would not be careful enough about her breeding to bother with a prefix. I hope she bothered to observe the mating. I would not be calling my dog a purebred unless I had the papers to prove it.

I am sure she was careful about the mating and knows exactly who fathered the litter given that the sire is the only entire male in the household. The dam's parents are both desexed. I am not about to stand on my soap box and boast that he is a pedigree purebred, but he is nevertheless a purebred :)

I purchased a PUREBRED Japanese Spitz from a breeder who lives down the road from me, her breeding dogs are registered but she hasn't bothered with a prefix, when I posted as much....a couple of posters were adamant that my JS is not a purebred :wave:. How'zat? Both his parents AND grandparents have pedigrees YET some people have deemed him NOT a purebred because he didn't come with papers?? I had a chuckle after reading those posts, still makes me chuckle to think that someone implied there could have been anything in his background including cocker spaniel, hahahahahaha. Go figure.....

Thats a real worry that a breeder would not be careful enough about her breeding to bother with a prefix. I hope she bothered to observe the mating. I would not be calling my dog a purebred unless I had the papers to prove it.

Something tells me her dogs are probably not even mains registered...

Your gut instinct is wrong in this case. Believe you me....I can tell the difference between full or limited registration papers. The breeder's dogs are "mains" registered. :)

Surely if you're going to go to all the effort of ensuring they have these great bloodlines, the parents are on show and they have papers etc then going for a prefix and registering your good, hard work and great intentions is the logical next step?

I don't understand the 'couldn't be bothered with'

It's like creating the Mona Lisa and deciding you CBF signing it, really.

Sounds dodgy, purebred or not, that's a moot point, I am sure there's a reason the breeder can't be arsed applying to register herself and her dogs.

The reason she couldn't be bothered with a prefix is because she was diagnosed with cancer and had to go to hospital to have the cancerous growth removed, it was whilst in hospital recovering that the mating took place, her two teenage daughters were looking after the dogs at the time; she had every intention of going through with a prefix but after her health scare, she changed her mind and she decided that she would not continue breeding, so much so that the dam was spayed last Friday. I am condensing a long story here so please people....don't attempt to dissect it.

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I wouldn't call anything I got as a rescue/without papers a purebred, but having said that, I don't often refer to my own purebred dog as purebred anyway :laugh:

If I had adopted the hypothetical GSD I would just tell people it was a GSD.

If they asked about it being purebred, I would probably say I believe so, but can't be sure.

If I knew that GSD was born of parents that were purebred GSD I would classify it as purebred yes, but without a pedigree.

My greyhounds are rescue dogs and they are 100% purebred greyhounds. I have no papers but they are greyhounds. Not having a go at you Aussie just sayin... :)

Oh I agree with you SM, I meant if I didn't know they were purebred I wouldn't just assume and tell people they were.

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minimax   

The reason she couldn't be bothered with a prefix is because she was diagnosed with cancer and had to go to hospital to have the cancerous growth removed, it was whilst in hospital recovering that the mating took place, her two teenage daughters were looking after the dogs at the time; she had every intention of going through with a prefix but after her health scare, she changed her mind and she decided that she would not continue breeding, so much so that the dam was spayed last Friday. I am condensing a long story here so please people....don't attempt to dissect it.

No - I'm going to dissect it. You've said before this wasn't her first litter.

Plus you don't apply for a prefix once the mating has already taken place! And a reputable breeder didn't breed this litter ... teenagers did.

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The reason she couldn't be bothered with a prefix is because she was diagnosed with cancer and had to go to hospital to have the cancerous growth removed, it was whilst in hospital recovering that the mating took place, her two teenage daughters were looking after the dogs at the time; she had every intention of going through with a prefix but after her health scare, she changed her mind and she decided that she would not continue breeding, so much so that the dam was spayed last Friday. I am condensing a long story here so please people....don't attempt to dissect it.

No - I'm going to dissect it. You've said before this wasn't her first litter.

Plus you don't apply for a prefix once the mating has already taken place! And a reputable breeder didn't breed this litter ... teenagers did.

So you're telling me that if the breeder was at home instead of being in hospital, the litter would have differed somewhat? That's something worth pondering about, lol. As regards to the prefix.....as I said long story which is why she didn't get around to a prefix, I can't be bothered writing a novel of epic proportions; at the end of the day I am happy with Beau and what's more, he doesn't suffer from tear stains nor do his parents, something that I was forewarned by other breeders concerning their pups.

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minimax   

I was in a petshop on the weekend and overheard the salesgirl assuring someone their "moodles" were purebred, as both the parents were "moodles"

So, most people in this thread would agree then, that since both the puppies parents were "moodles" then that puppy was indeed a purebred puppy!

Personally, I don't agree with your theory and it takes more than both parents being the (apparent) same breed for a puppy to be a purebred, and I definitely wouldn't quote wikipedia as a reliable source if you want to be taken seriously lol

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minimax   

The reason she couldn't be bothered with a prefix is because she was diagnosed with cancer and had to go to hospital to have the cancerous growth removed, it was whilst in hospital recovering that the mating took place, her two teenage daughters were looking after the dogs at the time; she had every intention of going through with a prefix but after her health scare, she changed her mind and she decided that she would not continue breeding, so much so that the dam was spayed last Friday. I am condensing a long story here so please people....don't attempt to dissect it.

No - I'm going to dissect it. You've said before this wasn't her first litter.

Plus you don't apply for a prefix once the mating has already taken place! And a reputable breeder didn't breed this litter ... teenagers did.

So you're telling me that if the breeder was at home instead of being in hospital, the litter would have differed somewhat? That's something worth pondering about, lol. As regards to the prefix.....as I said long story which is why she didn't get around to a prefix, I can't be bothered writing a novel of epic proportions; at the end of the day I am happy with Beau and what's more, he doesn't suffer from tear stains nor do his parents, something that I was forewarned by other breeders concerning their pups.

Totally :offtopic:

It apparently doesn't make a difference in the BYB world, but in the world of purebreds and registered matings - yes, it makes a huge difference.

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I was in a petshop on the weekend and overheard the salesgirl assuring someone their "moodles" were purebred, as both the parents were "moodles"

So, most people in this thread would agree then, that since both the puppies parents were "moodles" then that puppy was indeed a purebred puppy!

Personally, I don't agree with your theory and it takes more than both parents being the (apparent) same breed for a puppy to be a purebred, and I definitely wouldn't quote wikipedia as a reliable source if you want to be taken seriously lol

Strange comparison, let's compare oranges with oranges, shall we? :D. Moodles are NOT a recognised 'breed' so it's a moot point irrespective of what a naive salesgirl seems to believe. You cannot compare this example with my boy. His dam and sire do have papers which nullifies your comparison.

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minimax   

I was in a petshop on the weekend and overheard the salesgirl assuring someone their "moodles" were purebred, as both the parents were "moodles"

So, most people in this thread would agree then, that since both the puppies parents were "moodles" then that puppy was indeed a purebred puppy!

Personally, I don't agree with your theory and it takes more than both parents being the (apparent) same breed for a puppy to be a purebred, and I definitely wouldn't quote wikipedia as a reliable source if you want to be taken seriously lol

Strange comparison, let's compare oranges with oranges, shall we? :D. Moodles are NOT a recognised 'breed' so it's a moot point irrespective of what a naive salesgirl seems to believe. You cannot compare this example with my boy. His dam and sire do have papers which nullifies your comparison.

Uh, I'm not sure why you believe this entire thread is about you?

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The reason she couldn't be bothered with a prefix is because she was diagnosed with cancer and had to go to hospital to have the cancerous growth removed, it was whilst in hospital recovering that the mating took place, her two teenage daughters were looking after the dogs at the time; she had every intention of going through with a prefix but after her health scare, she changed her mind and she decided that she would not continue breeding, so much so that the dam was spayed last Friday. I am condensing a long story here so please people....don't attempt to dissect it.

No - I'm going to dissect it. You've said before this wasn't her first litter.

Plus you don't apply for a prefix once the mating has already taken place! And a reputable breeder didn't breed this litter ... teenagers did.

So you're telling me that if the breeder was at home instead of being in hospital, the litter would have differed somewhat? That's something worth pondering about, lol. As regards to the prefix.....as I said long story which is why she didn't get around to a prefix, I can't be bothered writing a novel of epic proportions; at the end of the day I am happy with Beau and what's more, he doesn't suffer from tear stains nor do his parents, something that I was forewarned by other breeders concerning their pups.

Totally :offtopic:

It apparently doesn't make a difference in the BYB world, but in the world of purebreds and registered matings - yes, it makes a huge difference.

OFF TOPIC? what the?

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Who said anything about this thread being all about me? Having said that, you did quote me so I merely responded. Also, this thread was started after a debate about my Japanese spitz, which some people considered not to be a purebred because he didn't come with limited or full rego papers even though his parents are fully registered..... hence the OP asking what makes a dog a purebred :)

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minimax   

Totally :offtopic:

It apparently doesn't make a difference in the BYB world, but in the world of purebreds and registered matings - yes, it makes a huge difference.

OFF TOPIC? what the?

This is a thread about what a purebred is, I was just saying that we had gone off-topic by talking about matings.

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minimax   

Who said anything about this thread being all about me? Having said that, you did quote me so I merely responded. Also, this thread was started after a debate about my Japanese spitz, which some people considered not to be a purebred because he didn't come with limited or full rego papers even though his parents are fully registered..... hence the OP asking what makes a dog a purebred :)

Actually, my post didn't quote anyone, check again! It was directed at those who said a purebred is a puppy who has both parents of the same breed (as I stated in my post - is there an echo in here?)

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ellz   

1. A "moodle" doesn't exist. It is actually a Maltese x Poodle. Condensing names and creating buzz words doesn't make it any different to what it is.

2. A Maltese x Poodle is not a purebred dog by the definition of most reputable and responsible breeders and dog owners. The original dogs behind the Maltese and the original dogs behind the Poodle may well have been "pure bred" but they crossed the line when the first cross breeding was done.

3. Pedigree papers may or may not be an indicator of purity of blood. It would actually be just as easy for the person who bred the Maltese x Poodle litter to provide a pedigree document if both parents had a documented pedigree as it would be for a registered breeder, however any pedigree which incorporates two or more DIFFERENT breeds isn't necessarily classed as purebred....semantics yes, definition yes, ETHICS....most certainly.

4. In the "real" world it would be just as possible for a REGISTERED purebred dog to have a dodgy "pedigree" as any non-registered dog, but the assumption is that an ANKC endorsed pedigree, whether Main or Limited is some degree of authenticity. There are exceptions of course but with the trend towards DNA testing becoming more common now, this is less and less likely as the months go by.

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I'm just ignoring the JS case now, she has bought from a BYB, who has no prefix and if her breeding animal's where in fact on main and/or limited registration she is breaking the Code of Ethics of her state canine authority, and of the ANKC. She should be reported and suspended from showing and breeding activities, if in fact she was a participant, or a member of any of these organisations to begin with. It wasn't her first litter, and prefixes are sought well before you plan to breed, not during/and or after a mating.

The larger issue here seems to be the utter confusion regarding terms. If we, on here can't establish what a purebred, or a pedigree, is, how the bleep are the general public, who have no idea about the intricacies of the purebred/pedigree dog world.

In this day and age of breeder's outside the system simply saying what they want so they can charge extra for a pup, the language of dog's has become so twisted and confusing that really no one out there understands them. And now we are even complicating 'purebred'. Purebred dogs have always referred to something registrable, and identifiable by its record of registration. Now, it seems that a dog that looks like a breed can also be considered purebred as long as it looks the same. That is ridiculous, and completely defies any knowledge of genetics. I have an issue with dogs being rounded up for BSL being identified simply by the way they look, and I also have a problem of a dog being identified as purebred based on looks as well. People keep using the example of rescues - yes rescues identify dogs they are to help based on looks, but they sure as h**ll don't rehome them on the basis that they are purebred, or pedigree'd.

These are the sorts of things, we as a community, need to define, and establish, so there is no doubt, when Mr Joe Public goes out to buy a purebred dog, that he realises there is only one way to get there - through a registered, reputable breeder, and not through other means.

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What about all the "purebred" dogs in rescue? Some dogs that come into pounds and rescue DO have papers....should Joe Public not go there?

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ellz   

Dogsaremyworld, I appreciate your passion, but some of your sentiments about canine controlling bodies and registered breeders are a tad skewed.

There is no "law" preventing a registered breeder from breeding crossbreds. The canine controlling body rules only state that the breeder should not use their registered dogs to breed to unregistered animals of the same breed or registered or unregistered animals of any other breed.

Canine controlling bodies are ONLY registering bodies and have no real jurisdiction in law so prosecution for any reason is highly unlikely, unless brought about civilly by another party.

If a dog can be identified by pedigree, whether registered or unregistered then that IMO (and the opinion of many others) makes them recognisable as that breed. Take Staffordshire Bull Terriers for example. One of the most overbred, and POORLY bred breeds on earth (probably along with Boxers, Labradors, Golden Retrievers, German Shepherds, Cocker Spaniels etc). There are many that only slightly resemble the breed yet which are still from "pedigreed and purebred" animals. There are many in the ring that simply don't belong there yet the difference is that they are from registered breeders and have ANKC registration documents. In my eyes, they are no different.

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minimax   

1. A "moodle" doesn't exist. It is actually a Maltese x Poodle. Condensing names and creating buzz words doesn't make it any different to what it is.

2. A Maltese x Poodle is not a purebred dog by the definition of most reputable and responsible breeders and dog owners. The original dogs behind the Maltese and the original dogs behind the Poodle may well have been "pure bred" but they crossed the line when the first cross breeding was done.

3. Pedigree papers may or may not be an indicator of purity of blood. It would actually be just as easy for the person who bred the Maltese x Poodle litter to provide a pedigree document if both parents had a documented pedigree as it would be for a registered breeder, however any pedigree which incorporates two or more DIFFERENT breeds isn't necessarily classed as purebred....semantics yes, definition yes, ETHICS....most certainly.

4. In the "real" world it would be just as possible for a REGISTERED purebred dog to have a dodgy "pedigree" as any non-registered dog, but the assumption is that an ANKC endorsed pedigree, whether Main or Limited is some degree of authenticity. There are exceptions of course but with the trend towards DNA testing becoming more common now, this is less and less likely as the months go by.

I'm fully aware of that, and I'm using that example to point out the flaw in most peoples logic of the "if both parents are the same breed then the resulting puppy is a purebred".

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ellz   

1. A "moodle" doesn't exist. It is actually a Maltese x Poodle. Condensing names and creating buzz words doesn't make it any different to what it is.

2. A Maltese x Poodle is not a purebred dog by the definition of most reputable and responsible breeders and dog owners. The original dogs behind the Maltese and the original dogs behind the Poodle may well have been "pure bred" but they crossed the line when the first cross breeding was done.

3. Pedigree papers may or may not be an indicator of purity of blood. It would actually be just as easy for the person who bred the Maltese x Poodle litter to provide a pedigree document if both parents had a documented pedigree as it would be for a registered breeder, however any pedigree which incorporates two or more DIFFERENT breeds isn't necessarily classed as purebred....semantics yes, definition yes, ETHICS....most certainly.

4. In the "real" world it would be just as possible for a REGISTERED purebred dog to have a dodgy "pedigree" as any non-registered dog, but the assumption is that an ANKC endorsed pedigree, whether Main or Limited is some degree of authenticity. There are exceptions of course but with the trend towards DNA testing becoming more common now, this is less and less likely as the months go by.

I'm fully aware of that, and I'm using that example to point out the flaw in most peoples logic of the "if both parents are the same breed then the resulting puppy is a purebred".

I wasn't responding to you in particular, just to the sentiments in general and responding with my own version of the interpretations as I see them.

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espinay2   

I was in a petshop on the weekend and overheard the salesgirl assuring someone their "moodles" were purebred, as both the parents were "moodles"

So, most people in this thread would agree then, that since both the puppies parents were "moodles" then that puppy was indeed a purebred puppy!

Personally, I don't agree with your theory and it takes more than both parents being the (apparent) same breed for a puppy to be a purebred, and I definitely wouldn't quote wikipedia as a reliable source if you want to be taken seriously lol

No, it takes way more than one or two generations!!!! A 'Moodle' is not a breed so crossing two crossbreed dogs does not in the next generation magically create a pure breed!!!! (what you have Is an f2 cross) This is NOT what we have been talking about at all...

Edited by espinay2

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