Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ness

Another Joint Supplement: Rose-hip Vital Canine

198 posts in this topic

Has anyone noticed if the RHVC has made their dogs poop have a reddish tinge? I'm not too worried as I broke it up and I'm sure it's not blood but just wondering if it could be the RHVC.

Yep:-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moosepup   

Has anyone noticed if the RHVC has made their dogs poop have a reddish tinge? I'm not too worried as I broke it up and I'm sure it's not blood but just wondering if it could be the RHVC.

Yep:-)

Thank you. :)

Zoe had to have a cartrophen injection yesterday and will have one a week for the next 4 weeks. She's also on Meloxicam for a week. She's been limping a lot this week on her left front leg and seemed uncomfortable. It's hard to tell with her as she barely expresses pain, I don't think I've ever heard her yelp! Vet suspects progressing arthritis as there's some thickening to the elbow and shoulder joints but will reassess at each visit. He said to keep up with the RHVC as it may still help too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
seeana   

Hi every one I am trying to work out why dogs have to have so much more Rose hip Vital than we do???? as for instance ' say a man at 100 kilo's would only have to start on 10 caps a day and for maintenance dose only 5 caps a day human dose is the same what ever weight they are rather odd don't you think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ness   

Seeana I followed up your question with the company and got this response back:

"... [t]he recommended human and dog dosages are both based on scientific research. For dogs the dose is split into three weight categories because there is such a huge difference between a very small dog and a very large dog. Eg a Chihuahua might weigh about 1.5kg compared to 75kg Great Dane or St Bernard

We do hear of some people who find a higher dosage is what they need and we also hear from some people who find a smaller than recommended dose is enough for their dog. Ideally the recommended dose should be followed for maximum benefit".

My aside on the dosage issue is this - I have 2 border collies (a 13kg one an a 17kg one) - both are on maintenance dose. My 17kg girl is getting a heaped scoop whereas my 13kg girl is getting somewhere between 2-3 scoops even on maintenance dose. The product is a "safe" tolerance of 5 x loading dose so there is room to vary the amount given. My youngster is on 2-3 scoops on advice from the company because of the complexity of her issues and in an attempt to keep her off/on reduced quantities of more conventional medications.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kamuzz   

Ness, haven't read this whole thread so my apologies if this has already been answered. Are you using RHCV on its own, or in conjunction with any other nutraceuticals?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ness   

Both my two are on the RHVC plus fish oil at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ness   

Here we go - I have mainly spoken about my baby girls experience on RHVC but about time my oldie got a bit of airtime. Ness's improvements haven't been as dramatic because she wasn't having as many issues to begin with. Its still helping her significantly though :thumbsup:.

Edited by ness

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steve   

I think it needs to be made more clear though ness. Humans can easily stop long term vitamin C supplements with no ill effects (because we don't produce any on our own) but dogs are different and many people don't know that.

For a short term I think they are okay though - best to clarify with Steve.

Yep - if humans dont eat vitamin C they die after they get immune system issues and scurvy etc but dogs manufacture their own vitamin C which is not quite the type it eats so it doesn't do it as much good and isn't the same as when it makes it . If you just decide to treat the dog with this indefinitely the ability for it to produce its own shuts down .O.K. You can continue to supplement all its life but there is a difference between vitamin C which is eaten and vitamin C which is made via the dog's own system.

Giving dogs vitamin C should be approached as if the vitamin C is a medicine for short term use in cases where the dog is under huge stress. Remember all of the usual foods and even raw food diets have some levels of vitamin C already.

Now part of the problem is that in studies they may give the supplement and there is a difference so it must work and when you start to supplement you may see an improvement so you stick with it but no one knows the long term differences either between the dog being able to manufacture enough or taking it long term.

There are lots of people and companies making loads of money out of foods and supplements for dogs and Im not adverse to giving a supplement per Se but think it through - as the dog manufactures its own vitamin C wouldn't it be better if we ensured the dog was eating a diet which provided it with the nutrients it needed to manufacture the enzymes required to produce its own vitamin C .

If we replace it's need to manufacture its own vitamin C then what happens to the other stuff that it would ordinarily use to manufacture it - how does this impact on calcium to phosphorous levels in the blood stream - how does it impact on calcium and copper etc. none of these studies have been done and certainly not over extended periods of time.

The danger of vitamin C overdosing is that symptoms may not appear until permanent damage has been done developing calcium oxalate crystals or stones in the urinary tract.

Edited by Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ness   

Joint Guard - another commonly used and recommended joint supplement also contains Vitamin C. I am not sure what the argument is if as you say all normal foods including raw diets contain vitamin C. I have had both dogs on joint guard previously as recommended by vet specialists. My oldie has probably been on joint guard for at least 5 years and quite possibly a lot longer then that.

The Rose-Hip (and the dog equivalent) given that I just borrowed this from the RH webpage states the following -

"Vitamin C in Rose-Hip Vital® is completely natural and is absorbed more effectively then synthetic Vitamin C but is not a Vitamin C supplement".

So therefore presumably no different to any other "food or raw diet" which happens to contain some level of Vitamin C supplementation.

Edited by ness

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steve   

Joint Guard - another commonly used and recommended joint supplement also contains Vitamin C. I am not sure what the argument is if as you say all normal foods including raw diets contain vitamin C. I have had both dogs on joint guard previously as recommended by vet specialists. My oldie has probably been on joint guard for at least 5 years and quite possibly a lot longer then that.

The Rose-Hip (and the dog equivalent) given that I just borrowed this from the RH webpage states the following -

"Vitamin C in Rose-Hip Vital® is completely natural and is absorbed more effectively then synthetic Vitamin C but is not a Vitamin C supplement".

So therefore presumably no different to any other "food or raw diet" which happens to contain some level of Vitamin C supplementation.

Ness dogs can and do over dose on vitamin C and they dont need to eat vitamin C. If they get some in their diet its small amounts now and then not massive amounts every day Better absorbed doesnt have to equal better for the dog as it does for people who cant make their own. Dogs make up to 1000mg of vitamin C a day why would they need any more unless they are in a very high stress state where they use more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ness   

No the bit in that statement I was highlighting (and the bit I underlined and bolded) is the bit about it not being a vitamin C supplement, I don't think it really matters whether its better absorbed or not in this context.

I am still not sure what you then use to supplement for a joint related issue if all of the joint supplements appear to contain vitamin C. They are not being marketed as a vitamin C supplement.

I have just googled 4 commonly recommended joint supplements for dogs manufactured by different companies and all contain vitamin C.

Edited by ness

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steve   

No the bit in that statement I was highlighting (and the bit I underlined and bolded) is the bit about it not being a vitamin C supplement, I don't think it really matters whether its better absorbed or not in this context.

I am still not sure what you then use to supplement for a joint related issue if all of the joint supplements appear to contain vitamin C. They are not being marketed as a vitamin C supplement.

ETA I have just googled 4 commonly recommended joint supplements for dogs manufactured by different companies and all contain vitamin C.

No that's not what I mean - in humans vitamin C is a necessity and as such if you add it in any form its a good thing. Any response from too much of it is short lived. Now call it what it what you want, a food, a supplement an additive etc Its about how its used in regard to the dog that matters.

If you add vitamin C to the dog's diet it should be treated as a short term thing as you would if it were a medicine not as you do for humans as a supplement to their diet or as part of the diet because if you do the dog will stop manufacturing vitamin C and be totally reliant on its source of vitamin C on what you feed it and the studies required to allow us to know how much the dog needs to eat to be able to utilise the same amount it normally makes and utilises haven't been done. They don't even understand yet why after you give a dog vitamin C that the blood levels peak go down and then 9 hours later peak again.

These products are being sold and marketed based on what humans need for inflammation and joint pain but that doesn't mean they should be used without question as to how the dog differs to humans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ness   

Steve do you have an literature references to back up what your saying I would be keen to have a read.

In the end its about what works for the dog and they don't suffer from the placebo effect experienced in humans. There are "consequences" for lots of things. There are huge consequences of using conventional drug therapies (nsaids/tramadol). Everything in life is a risk v reward scenario.

My oldie who featured in the recent video spent this morning helping plot tracks for a track and search trial next weekend. She was happy racing around the bush for a couple of hours without any issue. She then came home and happily came out for another walk just before. She hasn't had an issue with her front leg since starting on the RHVC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Steve   

Im not saying dont use it Im saying use it as a medicine not as part of the diet .Its been shown to do great stuff in dogs but in short doses.

I dont have time to dig out any more studies but these are part of notes I have handy on my computer regarding this

http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/dogfood01vitaminC.pdf

Innes (1931) demonstrated that the dog wasindependent of a dietary supply of vitamin C. Puppies fed a diet devoid ofvitamin C for 147 to 154 days showed neither growth impairment nor lesions ofbones and teeth, although the same diet killed guinea pigs within 25 days withsevere signs of scurvy. Furthermore, the livers of dogs on the deficient dietcontained the vitamin in sufficient amounts to prevent the onset of scurvy inguinea pigs, indicating that the dog can synthesize vitamin C. Naismith (1958) showedthat this synthetic ability is present in puppies during the first weeks ofpostnatal life.

Naismith and Pellet (1960) reported that theconcentration of vitamin C in the milk from bitches is approximately four timesthat of the blood. The comparative rates of liver synthesis of vitamin C indogs and cats appear to be lower than those in ruminants, rodents, and rabbits(Chatterjee et al., 1975). Dogs synthesized vitamin C in the liver at a rate of5 µg per mg of protein per hour while cows, rats and rabbits had rates of 68,39, and 23 µg per mg of protein per hour, respectively.

Teare et al. (1980) reportedthat 600 mg of ascorbic acid twice daily only aggravated the skeletal diseaseinduced by overfeeding protein, energy and calcium to Labrador retrieverpuppies.

A study atCornell University showed that vitamin C treated dogs actually had less vitaminC in their adrenal glands than did the control dogs that had not been fed anyextra. The more the vitamin was given in nutrition/medication, the faster thedogs seemed to expel it through the urine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
moosepup   

Food for thought, thanks Steve.

Zoe is on a course of cartrophen now anyway so I might scale back the RHVC until I finish this tub and then go from there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

These products are being sold and marketed based on what humans need for inflammation and joint pain but that doesn't mean they should be used without question as to how the dog differs to humans.

Well said. The Rose Hip is definitely pioneered in humans first. I'm not sure they are obligated to do thorough research for canine. I'm sure human research is more regulatory than dogs.

*sigh* always have this fear of harming my dog in the long run.

Edited by Jess the Lab

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ness   

Jess the lab - conventional meds especially NSAIDs have huge potential to harm a dog in the long run. Its always a matter of balancing the risk v reward situation.

Rose-Hip Canine Vital is APVMA registered. APVMA are the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicine Authority and was the first natural product registered since new guidelines for the registration of Complementary Herbal Remedies was introduced in 2009. So yes there was extensive research done before registration was granted.

I don't know exactly what the registration process entails but I am aware there were clinical trials done on canines with doses up to 5 times the loading dose over extended durations.

Edited by ness

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
OSoSwift   

Yes and the reason I have switched to it is my dog ended up with gastric bleeding from NSAID.

If you were really concerned about having to give your dog unneccessary things I would concentrate on getting her weight right down and you may find she coped much better than she has been. Getting their weight down is a very cheap and effective way to reduce stress on joints and help with any lameness issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ness   

I have had it clarified that the amount of Vitamin C contained in 1 scoop of RHVC is only 2.5mg. So we aren't talking huge amounts by any length. Its also a natural form rather than a synthetic form.

Edited by ness

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes and the reason I have switched to it is my dog ended up with gastric bleeding from NSAID.

If you were really concerned about having to give your dog unneccessary things I would concentrate on getting her weight right down and you may find she coped much better than she has been. Getting their weight down is a very cheap and effective way to reduce stress on joints and help with any lameness issues.

I have to look up on NSAID. So, I pressume Rose Hip is not under NSAID category?

Yes, I do recognise and acknowledge the fat plays a key role in this. But, c'mon it's easier for greyhounds than fat labs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×